Sylvester/karmazin - good fight?

[Escopeta]

Originally Posted by ollyc

When was the last time a German lost a 'close decision' in a title fight in Germany?
I thought Campillo beat Murat - Murat got the nod.
I thought Gevor beat Sturm convincingly. Sturm got the nod.
I thought Spada edged Zbik in the first encounter. Zbik got the nod.
I admit I didn't watch last night's fight, but if it was as close as you say, it is yet another example that an away fighter can only win a title in Germany by winning convincingly or by knockout.

And let's face it no other country has nearly as many scandalous moments such as the Krasniqi/Brewster, Hernandez/Braithwaite, Braehemer/Sukhotsky, Ottke/Reid ...

Murat won the opening two rounds but Campillo schooled him after that and outclassed him. That was awful crap decision. Ottke Reid is classic of course but besides that the other examples are pretty much pointless..
Brewster ko´d Krasniqi, Braithwaite ko´d Hernandez
Brahmer outpointed Sukhotsky convincingly and proved the decision to let him continue was the right one. I´m not a friend of waving off bouts of to quickly at all and he wasnt even down. of course if it was Brahmer who hurt the Russian in a situation like that they´d waved it off most likely.
Tajbert lost a close fight to Gulyakevich in Germany for an euro belt so did Shabani to Bundu and Sidorenko vs Moreno twice. If you were talking about native Germans then its pointless since there is no solid amout. would be Maske then probably about 15 years ago..
I had Sturm and Zbik winning their fights on my cards and I do really like Gevor and dont have the slightest doubt he will destroy Zbik on their 17th july clash.

[NBT]

I thought the draw was fair. Karmazin was more active but mostly hitting glove, while Sylvester landed the cleaner, more effective blows. bodhi might remember the discussion from Sturm-Gevor regarding activity versus effective punching. Those two fights are a good example.

This is NOT effective punching while hitting less, Sturm lost that fight.


Karmazin was marked and swollen, left eye closing, this is effective punching while hitting less, the draw is fair.

Originally Posted by bodhi

Btw. Ghevor is German citizen. Self-ownage, right there.

He wasn't a German citizen when he lost to Sturm. But that was of no importance. Sturm got the fight because he was the name fighter and the draw of the two, because he was the main event fighter for Universum. Gevor was the "opponent" who was supposed to lose.

Originally Posted by ollyc

Let's not get into that debate again. Pianeta is a German citizen having been raised there since childhood. But he regards himself as Italian. Abraham is a German citizen, but refers to himself as Armenian. Samil Sam was born and raised in Germany but regards himself as Turkish.

On the flipside the Podolski & Klose were born in Poland to parents who were also Polish born, (both of their mothers represented Poland internationally), yet regard themselves as German due to the fact that they were raised there.

If you get into that debate you should get your facts straight. Samil Sam was born in Germany but raised in Turkey, his family went back to Turkey after he was born. Podolski is a full-fledged Pole with German citizenship, alright, but Klose was is a member of the ethnic German minority in Poland (his German family name should be an obvious hint) which makes him German by birth right according to the Basic Law of Germany: "Unless otherwise provided by a law, a German within the meaning of this Basic Law is a person who possesses German citizenship or who has been admitted to the territory of the German Reich within the boundaries of December 31, 1937 as a refugee or expellee of German ethnic origin or as the spouse or descendant of such person."

Originally Posted by ollyc

Gevor is Armenian. Sturm is German.

I fail to see how Gevor is supposed more or less German than Sturm. Both are German citzens with Non-German ethnicity. Gevor is Armenian, Sturm(Adnan Catic) is Bosnian.

[bodhi]

Originally Posted by ollyc

Still ducking the question? You keep quoting that one example as if it's indicative of corruption in Britain. Did the referee drag Froch to his feet after he had been legitimately knocked down (Hernandez/Braithwaite)? Did he stop counting at nine when Froch was unable to rise to his feet (Krasniqi/Brewster)? Did he interupt the action when Froch was on the end of a fifty punch salvo, to have Froch's wounds inspected (Braehmer/Sukhotsky)?

You probably will struggle to find anymore examples to support your weak argument, considering our fighters actually fight abroad, and are less liable to accusations of homecooking.

You are so desperate it´s funny. Bringing up Brähmer-Sukhotsky. If this would have been the other way round you you would cry robbery for a too early stoppage.
Btw. Hernandez and Krasniqi lost those fights Scandalous!

Your bias against everything German is well documented, making these discussions pointless.

Originally Posted by ollyc

You were the one who brought up the fact that Gevor is aparently 'German', when he quite clearly isn't. Olusegun & Bayaar have both won the British title in their respective divisions recently. This doesn't detract from the fact that neither is British. Gevor is Armenian. Sturm is German. This was not billed as an all German affair, and you know it. If you were to start a thread posing the question, 'is Gevor German or Armenian', the overwhelming majority would side with me.

1. Ghevor´s "self-determination" has nothing to do with it because it has no influence on the outcome of any fight.
2. Ghevor is German citizen. Fact.
3. Ghevor fights under German flag and after the German anthemn is sung.
4. He lost in Germany.

I proved you wrong, don´t come up with desperate excuses and admit your failure, limey.

[bodhi]

Originally Posted by Escopeta

Murat won the opening two rounds but Campillo schooled him after that and outclassed him. That was awful crap decision. Ottke Reid is classic of course but besides that the other examples are pretty much pointless..
Brewster ko´d Krasniqi, Braithwaite ko´d Hernandez
Brahmer outpointed Sukhotsky convincingly and proved the decision to let him continue was the right one. I´m not a friend of waving off bouts of to quickly at all and he wasnt even down. of course if it was Brahmer who hurt the Russian in a situation like that they´d waved it off most likely.
Tajbert lost a close fight to Gulyakevich in Germany for an euro belt so did Shabani to Bundu and Sidorenko vs Moreno twice. If you were talking about native Germans then its pointless since there is no solid amout. would be Maske then probably about 15 years ago..
I had Sturm and Zbik winning their fights on my cards and I do really like Gevor and dont have the slightest doubt he will destroy Zbik on their 17th july clash.

Personally, I thought Murat-Campillo was closer, it was clearly visible that Murat was too inexperienced then though.

Good post overall

[bodhi]

Originally Posted by NBT

I thought the draw was fair. Karmazin was more active but mostly hitting glove, while Sylvester landed the cleaner, more effective blows. bodhi might remember the discussion from Sturm-Gevor regarding activity versus effective punching. Those two fights are a good example.

This is NOT effective punching while hitting less, Sturm lost that fight.


Karmazin was marked and swollen, left eye closing, this is effective punching while hitting less, the draw is fair.



He wasn't a German citizen when he lost to Sturm. But that was of no importance. Sturm got the fight because he was the name fighter and the draw of the two, because he was the main event fighter for Universum. Gevor was the "opponent" who was supposed to lose.


If you get into that debate you should get your facts straight. Samil Sam was born in Germany but raised in Turkey, his family went back to Turkey after he was born. Podolski is a full-fledged Pole with German citizenship, alright, but Klose was is a member of the ethnic German minority in Poland (his German family name should be an obvious hint) which makes him German by birth right according to the Basic Law of Germany: "Unless otherwise provided by a law, a German within the meaning of this Basic Law is a person who possesses German citizenship or who has been admitted to the territory of the German Reich within the boundaries of December 31, 1937 as a refugee or expellee of German ethnic origin or as the spouse or descendant of such person."


I fail to see how Gevor is supposed more or less German than Sturm. Both are German citzens with Non-German ethnicity. Gevor is Armenian, Sturm(Adnan Catic) is Bosnian.

This is what is fact. Thus Ghevor, Sturm and all the other fighters with German citizenships are Germany, no matter what you guys bring up.

[ollyc]

Originally Posted by NBT

If you get into that debate you should get your facts straight. Samil Sam was born in Germany but raised in Turkey, his family went back to Turkey after he was born.

I stand corrected.

Podolski is a full-fledged Pole with German citizenship, alright

I read a interview with Podolski where he stated he regarded himself as German. I'm aware he possesses Polish citizenship, but to be honest if he has declared himself as German that's more than enough for me.

But Klose was is a member of the ethnic German minority in Poland (his German family name should be an obvious hint) which makes him German by birth right according to the Basic Law of Germany: "Unless otherwise provided by a law, a German within the meaning of this Basic Law is a person who possesses German citizenship or who has been admitted to the territory of the German Reich within the boundaries of December 31, 1937 as a refugee or expellee of German ethnic origin or as the spouse or descendant of such person.

Again, his parents were born in Poland. He was born in Poland. The law to me isn't the most important factor in determining nationality. The fact that Klose was raised in Germany and thus regards himself as German, is the most important thing. Similarly if he had declared his allegiance to Poland, I would've similarly respected his choice.

Matthew Macklin has both Irish & British citizenship; as a child of Irish immigrants he was elligible for an Irish passport & having been born in England he is automatically a British citizen. He however regards himself as Irish - without wanting to labour the point, this takes precedence over any law.

Anyway all this talk of citizenship is boring me. Bodhi was the one who introduced the issue to the conversation, when he incorrectly stated that Gevor was a German citizen at the time he fought Sturm, to debunk my claim that foreign fighters do not generally get the decision in close bouts against German fighters.

I fail to see how Gevor is supposed more or less German than Sturm. Both are German citzens with Non-German ethnicity. Gevor is Armenian, Sturm(Adnan Catic) is Bosnian.

You can't see the difference? It's pretty obvious. One is German born and raised (Sturm) the other arrived in Germany at the age of 16 (Gevor).
As stated previously Sturm is German, Gevor is Armenian.

[ollyc]

Originally Posted by bodhi

You are so desperate it´s funny. Bringing up Brähmer-Sukhotsky. If this would have been the other way round you you would cry robbery for a too early stoppage.

Where did I say the fight should've been stopped you daft fucker?
I thought the fight should've continued - what I objected top was the break in action when Braehmer couldve been one or two shots from at the very least taking a trip to the canvas (he might've even have been stopped - we'll never know thanks to the referee's intervention). That 33 second break allowed him to recover sufficiently; you can't deny that (well since your such an obstinate, deluded defender of all things German you probably can).

Here's the round in question. See if you can't find fault with the referee.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkiNclaiuwo[/ame]

(The onslaught begins at 0:50 - Braehmer then takes several unanswered headshots [approximately 50!] until the referee stops the fight for 33 seconds to get Braehmers wounds attended to @ 1:30 in the video).

Hernandez and Krasniqi lost those fights Scandalous!

Lamon Brewster vs Luan Krasniqi

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbmxmTwO0fk[/ame]
(Forward to 4:30)

Yoan Pablo Hernandez vs Wayne Braithwaite

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIL0Ussbjpc[/ame]
(Forward to 7:05)

I'm well aware that Hernandez & Krasniqi lost those fights, but thanks for pointing that out anyway. If you don't think what happened in the above fights is 'scandalous', i'd suggest you lack integrity.

Your bias against everything German is well documented, making these discussions pointless.

I'll admit I don't particularly rate most of your boxers, but Jurgen Klinsmann was an idol of mine. I have also spent large amounts of money obsessively collecting everything Kraftwerk have ever released on vinyl. I also think Digitalism's 'Pogo' is culturally man's most significant achievement (and i'm being deadly serious).
So you're wrong. And not for the first time.

Ghevor is German citizen. Fact.

As mentioned by NBT, he wasn't when he fought Sturm.
So my argument still stands. Close fights always go the way of the German fighter.

I proved you wrong

No you didn't. You've either wilfully misinterpreted what i've stated or ignored points you can't refute.

[ollyc]

Originally Posted by Escopeta

Brewster ko´d Krasniqi, Braithwaite ko´d Hernandez

Again i'm aware of the outcomes of these fights. That doesn't justify the disgraceful officiating.

Brahmer outpointed Sukhotsky convincingly and proved the decision to let him continue was the right one. I´m not a friend of waving off bouts of to quickly at all and he wasnt even down. of course if it was Brahmer who hurt the Russian in a situation like that they´d waved it off most likely.

As I said in my previous post I don't think the fight should've been stopped either. What I objected to was the refereee stopping the action after Braehmer had been on the receiving end of approximately fifty unanswered headshots, in order to see that Braehmer's wounds were inspected by the doctor. If the action had been allowed to continue who knows what could've happened.

[Escopeta]

No look at it the action was over at that point. Sukhotsky had shot his wad. Braehmer had a serious cut caused by a legal punch. so if the doc had advised to stop the fight Sukhotsky would have won by tko immediately. The referee just did what he had to do.

Gevor lost that fight due to his own faults. everything worked well he stunned Sturm with uppercuts showed good bodywork and so on until he decided to act like some one dimensional bum and tried to bash his head against Sturms defense wall what of course lead into the fact that he landed nearly nothing and got countered well. Still cant believe he fought that way. It was a kinda similar story in the fight with Abraham. Nearly everyone rates Gevor based on these two fights which might be not wrong but in fact he is a much more mobile and skilled fighter. But he lost that fight with Sturm.

[bodhi]

Originally Posted by ollyc

Where did I say the fight should've been stopped you daft fucker?
I thought the fight should've continued - what I objected top was the break in action when Braehmer couldve been one or two shots from at the very least taking a trip to the canvas (he might've even have been stopped - we'll never know thanks to the referee's intervention). That 33 second break allowed him to recover sufficiently; you can't deny that (well since your such an obstinate, deluded defender of all things German you probably can).

Here's the round in question. See if you can't find fault with the referee.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

(The onslaught begins at 0:50 - Braehmer then takes several unanswered headshots [approximately 50!] until the referee stops the fight for 33 seconds to get Braehmers wounds attended to @ 1:30 in the video).

Sukhotsky already shot what he had by then. The onlsaught was over. I see no fault there.

btw. we have a saying over here "who insults is wrong".

Originally Posted by ollyc

Lamon Brewster vs Luan Krasniqi

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
(Forward to 4:30)

Yoan Pablo Hernandez vs Wayne Braithwaite

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
(Forward to 7:05)

I'm well aware that Hernandez & Krasniqi lost those fights, but thanks for pointing that out anyway. If you don't think what happened in the above fights is 'scandalous', i'd suggest you lack integrity.

Where did I say, iti isn´t? Show me. I just mentioned those fighters lost anyway, so it made no difference.

Originally Posted by ollyc

I'll admit I don't particularly rate most of your boxers, but Jurgen Klinsmann was an idol of mine. I have also spent large amounts of money obsessively collecting everything Kraftwerk have ever released on vinyl. I also think Digitalism's 'Pogo' is culturally man's most significant achievement (and i'm being deadly serious).
So you're wrong. And not for the first time.

What has this to do with boxing? That´s what we are talking here. I thought it´s obvious that it´s boxing related when I talk about your history of anti-German bias. Thanks for admitting I´m right.

Originally Posted by ollyc

As mentioned by NBT, he wasn't when he fought Sturm.
So my argument still stands. Close fights always go the way of the German fighter.

That´s why Gulyakovich beat Tajbert in a fight that could have went either way. In Germany.

Originally Posted by ollyc

No you didn't. You've either wilfully misinterpreted what i've stated or ignored points you can't refute.

Whatever you say, sweetheart.

[ollyc]

Originally Posted by Escopeta

No look at it the action was over at that point. Sukhotsky had shot his wad.

Well I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree. Braehmer grabbed hold of Sukhotsky - I think Sukhotsky could've continued.

[bodhi]

Originally Posted by ollyc

Well I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree. Braehmer grabbed hold of Sukhotsky - I think Sukhotsky could've continued.

Of course you do, you are desperate for an argument.

[ollyc]

Originally Posted by bodhi

btw. we have a saying over here "who insults is wrong".

Originally Posted by bodhi

Well, giving your history on here is the one of an unknowlegable cunt this actually proves me right.

Short memory, aye Bodhi?

[ollyc]

Originally Posted by bodhi

Sukhotsky already shot what he had by then. The onlsaught was over. I see no fault there.

As mentioned previously, I think we're not going to see eye to eye on what happened here.

Where did I say, iti isn´t? Show me. I just mentioned those fighters lost anyway, so it made no difference.

Your tone, use of emoticons, and justifications show that you don't really care about what happened. What if Krasniqi recovered sufficiently to win the decision over Brewster? What if Hernandez recovered sufifciently to kayo Braithwaite? The referees provided both with unfair & illegal opportunitues to recover from heavy knockdowns.

What has this to do with boxing? That´s what we are talking here. I thought it´s obvious that it´s boxing related when I talk about your history of anti-German bias. Thanks for admitting I´m right.

I admitted no such bias. I merely said I don't really rate most of your fighters. Doesn't mean I lack the ability to score fights objectively.

That´s why Gulyakovich beat Tajbert in a fight that could have went either way. In Germany.

The exception rather than the rule, 'sweetheart'.

[Escopeta]

Originally Posted by ollyc

Your tone, use of emoticons, and justifications show that you don't really care about what happened. What if Krasniqi recovered sufficiently to win the decision over Brewster? What if Hernandez recovered sufifciently to kayo Braithwaite? The referees provided both with unfair & illegal opportunitues to recover from heavy knockdowns.

you know if.. then there would be some controversy.
Brewser vs Krasniqi was one of the better fights that were for a major hw belt in the recent years so I was pleased for it. Krasniqi showed some heart but never had a chance to survive that fight since Brewster was much to strong for him.
Hernandez vs Braithwaite was of course ridiculous stuff but its not the case that such things happen only and every week in Germany.
Hernandez is a very talented fighter and what harms me most is that the germans force him to fight downright out of double guard stance since he was ko´d which is huge bs imo.
However sadly boxing is full of frauds. All over the world the promoters try to gain as much profit as possible and if necessary nearly no one hesitates to take a shit on sport.
Its senseless to list all the bs that happened in germany, uk, usa, mexico or elsewhere but Ottke vs Reid is one of the most famous robberies of all times but if you ask the ppl to name the biggest robberies they remember then besides Ottke vs Reid they wont come up with many others in which a german based fighter was involved. Maybe some would name Sturm vs DHL or Schulz vs Foreman.
I remember Mormeck vs Bell II in France when the bell suddendly rang whenever Mormeck was hurt. But that doesnt mean France is shit in general. I recently watched Nongqayi vs Bouziane and thought Bouziane did enough to win although it was very close.
The thing that bothers me with the fights in germany is that it seems there are a lot of people that just watch those fights bc they are keen to watch a robbery. No matter how the fight goes their scores will be in favor of the boxer who they think should lose even if its out of touch with any reality..