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Old 08-11-2009, 12:05 AM   #1
cross_trainer
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Default The ESB Fitzsimmons Project

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Gentlemen: I have another challenge for you.

We often debate the merits of "old school" vs. modern technique, with opinion fairly evenly divided between those who think that guys from Corbett's era would be able to hang with modern fighters and those who think that they'd get clobbered by "superior" techniques and combination punching from the modern guys. Complicating this situation is the fact that there's very little high quality footage available of fighters before Dempsey (or even Sharkey).

Rather than debate, let's try it.

Here's the plan:


I'll be posting every s**** of information I can find about Bob Fitzsimmons' style--his manual, his footage, and so on. I, working with the other members of the ESB Classic forum (that's you guys), will try to ****yze and explain his style as thoroughly as possible.

Then those of us who box (or even those who can work through the techniques slowly with a partner) will test the techniques, report the results, and refine any glitches or misinterpretations by discussing it in this thread with other people who are doing the same thing. If we can, we'll also upload videos (sparring, bagwork, padwork, whatever) of us working with the techniques.

In essence, this thread will a manual-in-progress, written by all of us, that explains step-by-step how to accurately reconstruct Bob Fitzsimmons' style and use it in the ring.

We need both ****ysts and boxers.

I've been discussing this a bit with GPater via PM's, and I think he might be interested. I'll wait until he gets here and checks my thread out before I say more, though.





So......







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Who's with me?!


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Old 08-11-2009, 12:13 AM   #2
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Default Re: The ESB Fitzsimmons Project

Fitzsimmons' Manual (pictures start around p. 115, instructions before that)

1) [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (free download)

2) [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

3) [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (Google Books)



Fitzsimmons' Film

1) 22 Minutes of Corbett vs. Fitzsimmons
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2) Fitzsimmons vs. Lang (very good quality; generously provided by GPater; I'll try to upload this on Youtube as well)
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BORKED

Last edited by cross_trainer; 08-11-2009 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 08-11-2009, 12:17 AM   #3
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Default Re: The ESB Fitzsimmons Project

When did you return to ESB? .

and Thanks for the links cross .
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Old 08-11-2009, 12:19 AM   #4
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Default Re: The ESB Fitzsimmons Project

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When did you return to ESB? .
Oh, a little while ago. There was a 19th century thread that enticed me out of retirement for another big payday.

Nice to see you again.
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Old 08-11-2009, 12:20 AM   #5
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Default Re: The ESB Fitzsimmons Project

Corbett's attire always gets me .
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Old 08-11-2009, 12:24 AM   #6
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Default Re: The ESB Fitzsimmons Project

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Corbett's attire always gets me .
Just be glad that ring-thongs went out of fashion before Tony Galento.
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Old 08-11-2009, 12:28 AM   #7
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Default Re: The ESB Fitzsimmons Project

Fitz-Lang. meaningless. He was WAY over the hill, inactive, and 46 years old.

The Fitz-Jeff recreation is even more meaningless because that's NOT either of them. It's a couple of actors. The footage is a fraud.
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Old 08-11-2009, 12:32 AM   #8
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Default Re: The ESB Fitzsimmons Project

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Fitz-Lang. meaningless. He was WAY over the hill, inactive, and 46 years old.

The Fitz-Jeff recreation is even more meaningless because that's NOT either of them. It's a couple of actors. The footage is a fraud.
Fitz-Lang is useful because it shows a bit of his stance's foot and hip positioning. Sure, it's not a great indicator of how he would have done in his prime, but it shows something about the way he moved.

Fitz-Jeff: I thought there was something weird about Fitz's style when I found that one on youtube. Thanks for the warning. I'll remove it.
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Old 08-11-2009, 02:30 AM   #9
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Default Re: The ESB Fitzsimmons Project

From what I've seen and read of Fitz, he appears to be some form of technician or counterpuncher. He seems to have been at his most comfortable against opponents who came at him, like Tom Sharkey. Against opponents who made him come forward, like Corbett, he seems to have been less comfortable and perhaps open and vulnerable.
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Old 08-11-2009, 03:01 AM   #10
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Default Re: The ESB Fitzsimmons Project

Looking at that Fitzsimmons-Lang footage, it is interesting to note, that i think it is the first or second time that Fitzsimmons was Knocked down by Lang, it took about a 5 or 6 punch combination to knock him down. Then in the final knockdown, while it is the last punch that does most of the damage, it is a 4 punch combination shortly before this that seems to set Fitzsimmons up for the KO. I thought i was told that combination punching did not exist in these days. WAs Bill Lang ahead of his time?

Fitz did look old and tired. Saying this, it also shows us what Fitz does when he is in trouble. You can see that Fitz had the whereabouts to clinch when hurt and in trouble. Very Smart. Also, there is one point where it looks like Lang is chasing Fitz for the KO and Fitz seems to stop him dead in his tracks and make him retreat with a big left hand.

One of the amazing things about this performance, which i just realised is that he is not totally outclassed and he is well in the fight, although it is a fair win to Lang. Shortly after this fight, Lang went the distance with Tommy Burns and also later beat Arthur Pelkey by KO, as well as Squires and others. He was well in the Kaufman fight also. Amazingly, even at this advanced age, Fitzsimmons could have very easily landed another world title shot against Tommy Burns at a ridiculously advanced age, if he had won this fight. That is something i only just realised. It is astonishing that he was so competive for so long.

I would love to see the full film of this fight. it is bad enough to have only past prime footage of fighter, but here it is only the round where Fitz was KOd. I would like to know how the fight went up through the first 10 or 11 rounds.
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Old 08-11-2009, 03:25 AM   #11
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Default Re: The ESB Fitzsimmons Project

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Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
Looking at that Fitzsimmons-Lang footage, it is interesting to note, that i think it is the first or second time that Fitzsimmons was Knocked down by Lang, it took about a 5 or 6 punch combination to knock him down. Then in the final knockdown, while it is the last punch that does most of the damage, it is a 4 punch combination shortly before this that seems to set Fitzsimmons up for the KO. I thought i was told that combination punching did not exist in these days. WAs Bill Lang ahead of his time?

Fitz did look old and tired. Saying this, it also shows us what Fitz does when he is in trouble. You can see that Fitz had the whereabouts to clinch when hurt and in trouble. Very Smart. Also, there is one point where it looks like Lang is chasing Fitz for the KO and Fitz seems to stop him dead in his tracks and make him retreat with a big left hand.

One of the amazing things about this performance, which i just realised is that he is not totally outclassed and he is well in the fight, although it is a fair win to Lang. Shortly after this fight, Lang went the distance with Tommy Burns and also later beat Arthur Pelkey by KO, as well as Squires and others. He was well in the Kaufman fight also. Amazingly, even at this advanced age, Fitzsimmons could have very easily landed another world title shot against Tommy Burns at a ridiculously advanced age, if he had won this fight. That is something i only just realised. It is astonishing that he was so competive for so long.

I would love to see the full film of this fight. it is bad enough to have only past prime footage of fighter, but here it is only the round where Fitz was KOd. I would like to know how the fight went up through the first 10 or 11 rounds.
interesting point.

This film is pretty good quality and almost in normal speed so we see every punch and movement.

Afew days ago i sat on the remote while watching Rose vs Limon and if it was black and white it could have came out of the 1890s. You seen no combination punches just single shots where i knew for a fact there was a combination as i rewatched it. So perhaps the speed of the films hide the combinations.

Also yes i am interested ill help out with the research and ill try out the techniques for you guys.
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Old 08-11-2009, 03:30 AM   #12
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Default Re: The ESB Fitzsimmons Project

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interesting point.

This film is pretty good quality and almost in normal speed so we see every punch and movement.

Afew days ago i sat on the remote while watching Rose vs Limon and if it was black and white it could have came out of the 1890s. You seen no combination punches just single shots where i knew for a fact there was a combination as i rewatched it. So perhaps the speed of the films hide the combinations.

Also yes i am interested ill help out with the research and ill try out the techniques for you guys.
Excellent, If you can just jag a WBC title, we are going to revolutionise modern boxing and nutrition theories. I cant wait for you to test out the good middleweight beats a heavyweight theory like fitz did

In all seriousness though, this does sound like an interesting project.
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Old 08-11-2009, 03:33 AM   #13
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Default Re: The ESB Fitzsimmons Project

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Excellent, If you can just jag a WBC title, we are going to revolutionise modern boxing and nutrition theories. I cant wait for you to test out the good middleweight beats a heavyweight theory like fitz did

In all seriousness though, this does sound like an interesting project.
yeh it sounds really interesting and sounds good fun aswell.

Im just trying out his style. I'd have to bulk up to try out the middleweight theories, im a featherweight haha
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Old 08-11-2009, 03:39 AM   #14
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Default Re: The ESB Fitzsimmons Project

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I thought i was told that combination punching did not exist in these days. WAs Bill Lang ahead of his time?
Although I've never heard that combo punching didn't exist in the old days, check out this fight (if you haven't already) with Willie Ritchie posted here:

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I was very impressed with Ritchie's combo punching in the late rounds. Then again, it's possible he was ahead of his time too.
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Old 08-11-2009, 07:25 AM   #15
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Default Re: The ESB Fitzsimmons Project

I will dig through some contemporary articles and try to pick out certain aspects of his style.

One thing that the articles are usualy prety specific on is what combination of punches was used to end a fight.
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