Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

 
  


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-02-2010, 05:30 PM   #76
Boilermaker
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,979
vCash: 685
Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons Appreciation Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Lang World Class?

I doubt he was top 10 material
So, who was the top 10 on that date, in your oppinion?
Boilermaker is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2010, 05:50 PM   #77
apollack
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,518
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons Appreciation Thread

Giving Bill Lang credit for KO'ing Fitz is like giving Hector Camacho credit for stopping Ray Leonard, or Berbick for beating Ali. Keep matters in perspective. Fitz was not shot - he was past shot at that point.
apollack is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2010, 06:24 PM   #78
Boilermaker
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,979
vCash: 685
Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons Appreciation Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by apollack View Post
Giving Bill Lang credit for KO'ing Fitz is like giving Hector Camacho credit for stopping Ray Leonard, or Berbick for beating Ali. Keep matters in perspective. Fitz was not shot - he was past shot at that point.
True. And he still came far closer to beating Lang than either of those two greats did.

Incidentally though, appollack, i am interested to know when you think Fitz actually peaked as a fighter. I am thinking that he may have been at his best, even before he won the world title.
Boilermaker is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-10-2010, 07:53 PM   #79
Boilermaker
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,979
vCash: 685
Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons Appreciation Thread

I wonder who the 13 fighters that Fitz beat in 1899 were, and how many of these were KOs or decision wins (or NDs).

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Boilermaker is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2010, 01:25 PM   #80
gentleman jim
gentleman jim
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 671
vCash: 500
Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons Appreciation Thread

Watching the film of the Fitzimmons/Lang bout makes me wonder how Bob would've dealt with some of the more modern fighters/styles. Of course Fitz was a shell of his former self in that fight but what I noticed is that style of fighting that Fitzimmons employed as well as many others from his time did seemed to make him vulnerable to a sharp overhand right Against another fighter of similar style Fitz may have been nearly unbeatable. But what about against a fighter who excels at the modern style. Say a Ray Robinson or a Hagler or Monzon or at LHW against a Foster or Tunney or Charles or Moore. Men who were taught to keep the elbows in and the hands up and particularly the head down as opposed to the older style of hands low, leaning back and the head straight up. Two different styles. Could an outstanding practitioner of the old style like Fitzimmons prevail over an outstanding practitioner of the modern style like Ray Robinson? Or would Robinson expose the inherent flaws in Fitz's style of fighting...or vice versa for that matter. This is a question that haunts me. Not the relative merits of a fighter like Fitz...There's no question the man was great. But how great when we try to compare him against great fighters that came later on...and compare thier styles. Assuming each man is very good at what he does, which "style" prevails?
gentleman jim is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2010, 04:19 PM   #81
SuzieQ49
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Boston
Posts: 13,490
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons Appreciation Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
So, who was the top 10 on that date, in your oppinion?
In 1909

1. Jack Johnson
2. Sam Langford
3. Joe Jeanette
4. Sam McVea
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Tommy Burns
7. Al Kaufman
8. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
9. Sandy Ferguson
10. Mike Schreck
SuzieQ49 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2010, 08:09 AM   #82
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,581
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons Appreciation Thread

I think people still tend to overlook Bob Fitzsimmons as one of the hardest punchers of all the heavyweight champions.
He was rated as at least as good a puncher as Dempsey and Louis by those who saw them all. Despite only weighing 165 pounds.
Unforgiven is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2010, 08:11 AM   #83
Flea Man
มวยสากล
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: @ferociousflea
Posts: 39,853
vCash: 75
Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons Appreciation Thread

What did Fitz weigh against Lang? I saw one report saying he weighed 160?!?!? Surely not at that stage of his life?
Flea Man is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2010, 02:50 PM   #84
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,255
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons Appreciation Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
I think people still tend to overlook Bob Fitzsimmons as one of the hardest punchers of all the heavyweight champions.
He was rated as at least as good a puncher as Dempsey and Louis by those who saw them all. Despite only weighing 165 pounds.
I have always said that if Bob Fitzsimmons had weighed 190lbs and had identicle career acomplishments, then the majority of posters on this site would rank him among their top 20 all time heavyweights.

I think by the same token he would absolutely be ranked higher as a finisher had he weighed as much as say Max Schmeling but had exactly the same firepower with no improvment to reflect his greater weight.

He basicaly gets penalised in both respects because he is so small that you have to pinch yourself when looking at what he did to his opponents.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2010, 03:35 PM   #85
SuzieQ49
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Boston
Posts: 13,490
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons Appreciation Thread

Quote:
I have always said that if Bob Fitzsimmons had weighed 190lbs and had identicle career acomplishments, then the majority of posters on this site would rank him among their top 20 all time heavyweights.
Yaa. but he didn't. In fact some reports referred him closer to 156lb than 167lb. Wasn't it you who printed the report he really weighed under 160lb when he fought Corbett?


I mean that's just too damm small. Ray Robinson, Marvin Hagler, Carlos Monzon...even these men could not compete with the 190-220lb heavyweight contenders of their day.
SuzieQ49 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2010, 03:51 PM   #86
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,255
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons Appreciation Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Yaa. but he didn't. In fact some reports referred him closer to 156lb than 167lb. Wasn't it you who printed the report he really weighed under 160lb when he fought Corbett?

I mean that's just too damm small. Ray Robinson, Marvin Hagler, Carlos Monzon...even these men could not compete with the 190-220lb heavyweight contenders of their day.
Yes but if he beat the people he did, then surely it should be reflected in his ranking even if he had weighed 130lbs?

In lists ranking fighters head to head it might be necesary to factor size in because Fitz is potentialy up against guys like Lennox Lewis.

Lists ranking fighters on acomplishments or finishing ability should theoreticaly be size blind.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2010, 05:25 PM   #87
Boilermaker
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,979
vCash: 685
Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons Appreciation Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Yaa. but he didn't. In fact some reports referred him closer to 156lb than 167lb. Wasn't it you who printed the report he really weighed under 160lb when he fought Corbett?
He weighed 158 against Corbett.

Quote:

I mean that's just too damm small. Ray Robinson, Marvin Hagler, Carlos Monzon...even these men could not compete with the 190-220lb heavyweight contenders of their day.
Think about that carefully and then tell us how good you think Fitz was.

And by the way, there was never ever a middleweight world champion other than Fitz and for that matter, there was never a light heavyweight champion except Burns, who was never really an undisputed or lineal champion.
Boilermaker is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2010, 08:08 AM   #88
Boilermaker
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,979
vCash: 685
Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons Appreciation Thread

Just to add a few notes and tidbits on some of the pretty anonymous Fitzsimmons KOs while he was middleweight champion. As usual, Fitz doesnt fail to astound me and increase my opinion on him as a fighter. I dont think we appreciate how lethal he was in his prime. Jim Hall is a throw away today. I never knew that Hall Fitzsimmons was the highest priced fight in history at the time! Hall must have been considered a bit better than we think of him today! And of course, I also never Knew (and this really beefs up his middleweight reign to be substantially better than any other previous champions reign), did anyone else know that the Joe Godfrey who was KOd twice in one round was probably the former world coloured champion?

Here are some of the articles on some of Fitz opponents which i recently read.


English Champion – Ted Pritchard – 1892

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Gregains
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Jim Hall fight of the Decade plus mentions of Rollins and the Heavyweight professor west who was kod in 1 round.
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


Joe Godfrey is seen as two brief KO 1 s on Fitzsimmons record. I have never seen it suggested before that he was anything of a fighter. However, this article here seems to suggest that he was actually Old Chocolate George Godfrey. An entirely plausible scenario. Anyone know anything about this? If correct, it shows that Fitzsimmons’ middleweight reign is the most underated ever. Godfrey was past prime by this time, but he still had some decent wins and performances before and after the Fitzsimmons KOs. Surely this couldn’t be correct, could it.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Fitz' reign at middleweight was truly astonishing.
Boilermaker is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2010, 09:27 AM   #89
GPater11093
Barry
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 19,025
vCash: 836
Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons Appreciation Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
Just to add a few notes and tidbits on some of the pretty anonymous Fitzsimmons KOs while he was middleweight champion. As usual, Fitz doesnt fail to astound me and increase my opinion on him as a fighter. I dont think we appreciate how lethal he was in his prime. Jim Hall is a throw away today. I never knew that Hall Fitzsimmons was the highest priced fight in history at the time! Hall must have been considered a bit better than we think of him today! And of course, I also never Knew (and this really beefs up his middleweight reign to be substantially better than any other previous champions reign), did anyone else know that the Joe Godfrey who was KOd twice in one round was probably the former world coloured champion?
Cheers for all this, I have some thoughts I will add below.


Quote:
Jim Hall fight of the Decade plus mentions of Rollins and the Heavyweight professor west who was kod in 1 round.
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
If I remember correctly Hall came to America just after Fitzsimmons, and built up a fair respect from fight fans. So he was known and had beaten Fitz before, so it would have sold well.


Quote:
Joe Godfrey is seen as two brief KO 1 s on Fitzsimmons record. I have never seen it suggested before that he was anything of a fighter. However, this article here seems to suggest that he was actually Old Chocolate George Godfrey. An entirely plausible scenario. Anyone know anything about this? If correct, it shows that Fitzsimmons’ middleweight reign is the most underated ever. Godfrey was past prime by this time, but he still had some decent wins and performances before and after the Fitzsimmons KOs. Surely this couldn’t be correct, could it.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
The paper though is from the late '20s and not a primary source, so perhaps the author of that piece could be putting 'two and two together' or has remembered wrongly. I still don't entirely believe this.

Quote:
Fitz' reign at middleweight was truly astonishing.
Yep.
GPater11093 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2010, 09:29 AM   #90
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,234
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons Appreciation Thread

Couple of good posts on this page.


Fitz still underated a tad on the board...
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013