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Old 06-27-2007, 11:31 AM   #31
Thom
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

I would've picked a healthy incarnation of him over anyone in the division at the time, but he never established himself as "the man." HBO and RING made asses of themselves by declaring him king of the division before he really accomplished anything.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:35 AM   #32
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

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Originally Posted by Erratic Behavior
What does figuring that someone is the likely heir apparent have to do with ranking a guy too highly? Jumping up six rankings from #10 to #4 for fairly losing a tough fight to the champion, and then going from #4 to #1 for beating a middle or lower-end top 10 guy is too much.

They may have ran him up the rankings pretty quick, and yes, Lewis beat him fair and square, but you've gotta admit.. it's highly unlikely that Byrd or Ruiz could've beaten him. And if Byrd can't beat Wladimir, then he sure as hell can't beat Vitali.

And are you sure Kirk wasn't rated higher than that? He was still seen as a leading contender, even with his horrible showing against Ruiz.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:39 AM   #33
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

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Originally Posted by RAMPAGE0017
They may have ran him up the rankings pretty quick, and yes, Lewis beat him fair and square, but you've gotta admit.. it's highly unlikely that Byrd or Ruiz could've beaten him. And if Byrd can't beat Wladimir, then he sure as hell can't beat Vitali.

And are you sure Kirk wasn't rated higher than that? He was still a very hyped-up fighter, even with his horrible showing against Ruiz.

I agree with that sentiment, but it's not relevant. You can't just go around awarding accolades to fighters based on how good you think they are. The have to earn it in the ring.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:51 AM   #34
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

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Originally Posted by RAMPAGE0017
They may have ran him up the rankings pretty quick, and yes, Lewis beat him fair and square, but you've gotta admit.. it's highly unlikely that Byrd or Ruiz could've beaten him. And if Byrd can't beat Wladimir, then he sure as hell can't beat Vitali.

And are you sure Kirk wasn't rated higher than that? He was still seen as a leading contender, even with his horrible showing against Ruiz.
Exactly. I would've made Vitali a favorite over Ruiz and Byrd in a rematch, but you can't call a guy a champion just because you think he'd win but hasn't done it. Who's to say that Vitali doesn't suffer another injury against Byrd in a rematch? Vitali wasn't the only guy to suffer a bad shoulder injury against Byrd, and his body wasn't the most sturdy anyway after all his years of fighting. How do we know that Ruiz doesn't hug his way to victory? Sure we don't think it's likely, but that's why they fight and there are upsets. How many people thought it was likely that Rahman would beat Lewis, Baldomir would beat Judah, or Douglas over Tyson?

I think Kirk Johnson was in the middle or lower end of the top 10. I'll have to check the issues later.
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Old 06-27-2007, 12:05 PM   #35
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

Vitali Klitschko would have destroyed that joke John Ruiz and he already was having an easy time with Byrd before the injury. He would have beat Brewster too when he was WBO champion.
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Old 06-27-2007, 12:09 PM   #36
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

I concidered Vitali the champ at the time since he beat the WBO champ and picked up the WBC strap all with one fight.

As far as Byrd is concerned, he arguably lost to Oquendo, Golota & even McCline, so it's hard to imagine that he would've had much of a chance at Vitali. Byrd's earlier "win" vs. Vitali was due to Vit injuring his shoulder while he was ahead on the cards.
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Old 06-27-2007, 12:11 PM   #37
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

Ruiz also lost to Golota IMO and actually did drop a decision to Toney only to get his belt back when Toney tested positive for steriods. Therefore it's hard to really take Huggy Bear seriously as a "champ".
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Old 06-27-2007, 12:18 PM   #38
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

It was interesting how the Ring pushed Vitali up so quickly even though he had losses to Byrd and Lewis. Perhaps they saw him as a man who had never been "beaten" since he was winning at the time of those two stoppages? I'm not saying it's right, but I don't see why else the Ring gave Vitali so much credit so fast.
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Old 06-27-2007, 12:34 PM   #39
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

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Originally Posted by Erratic Behavior
Exactly. I would've made Vitali a favorite over Ruiz and Byrd in a rematch, but you can't call a guy a champion just because you think he'd win but hasn't done it. Who's to say that Vitali doesn't suffer another injury against Byrd in a rematch? Vitali wasn't the only guy to suffer a bad shoulder injury against Byrd, and his body wasn't the most sturdy anyway after all his years of fighting. How do we know that Ruiz doesn't hug his way to victory? Sure we don't think it's likely, but that's why they fight and there are upsets. How many people thought it was likely that Rahman would beat Lewis, Baldomir would beat Judah, or Douglas over Tyson?

I think Kirk Johnson was in the middle or lower end of the top 10. I'll have to check the issues later.

Well, let me ask you this.... if Vitali didn't earn the spot as #1 heavyweight in the world, then who did? Neither Ruiz, nor Byrd accomplished anything as much as what Vitali accomplished in the short time which he did.

Last edited by RAMPAGE0017; 06-27-2007 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 06-27-2007, 12:37 PM   #40
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

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I agree with that sentiment, but it's not relevant. You can't just go around awarding accolades to fighters based on how good you think they are. The have to earn it in the ring.

Why not? It's being done at this very moment. Can you name me one good reason why Sam Peter is number 2 heavyweight in the world, even though he hasn't accomplished nearly as much as someone like Ruslan Chagaev?

It's also being done with Wladimir currently at #1, even though Wladimir doesn't have anything over any other current belt holder, aside from the fact that people think he's better.
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Old 06-27-2007, 12:44 PM   #41
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

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Originally Posted by RAMPAGE0017
Well, let me ask you this.... if Vitali didn't earn the spot as #1 heavyweight in the world, then who did? Neither Ruiz, nor Byrd accomplished anything as much as what Vitali accomplished in the short time which he did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAMPAGE0017
Why not? It's being done at this very moment. Can you name me one good reason why Sam Peter is number 2 heavyweight in the world, even though he hasn't accomplished nearly as much as someone like Ruslan Chagaev?

It's also being done with Wladimir currently at #1, even though Wladimir doesn't have anything over any other current belt holder, aside from the fact that people think he's better.
There's a difference between being the #1 contender, and being THE CHAMPION.

Wlad is not The Ring champion even though he'd be a favorite over the other top heavyweights out there.
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Old 06-27-2007, 12:50 PM   #42
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

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Originally Posted by Erratic Behavior
There's a difference between being the #1 contender, and being THE CHAMPION.

Wlad is not The Ring champion even though he'd be a favorite over the other top heavyweights out there.
See, that's my point though.... Vitali did fight a top 3 heavyweight, and won the Ring belt. And this particular heavyweight was a title holder himself. But, you already stated that you felt that he should've defeated atleast Byrd in order to truly be recognized as the true champion, and I was just curious as to your stance on the subject. But the fact is.. if Sanders was a top 3 heavyweight, then Vitali did legitimately win the Ring title.
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Old 06-27-2007, 01:11 PM   #43
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

i'd say Vitali was number one ranked...but the champ slot was vacant.
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:05 PM   #44
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

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Originally Posted by RAMPAGE0017
Why not? It's being done at this very moment. Can you name me one good reason why Sam Peter is number 2 heavyweight in the world, even though he hasn't accomplished nearly as much as someone like Ruslan Chagaev?

It's also being done with Wladimir currently at #1, even though Wladimir doesn't have anything over any other current belt holder, aside from the fact that people think he's better.
I have no problem with him being ranked #1. The issue here as I understand it is Vitali's status as THE Heavyweight champ. As I wrote earlier, I believe that Vitali was the best fighter in the division for a time but he never proved it in the ring. As far as I'm concerned, Lewis was the last legit champ in the weight class.

As for Wlad, it's the same deal. I believe that he's the top fighter in the division, but I don't think that he should be recognized as THE HW champ, and he isn't by anyone that I'm aware of. He's just ranked #1.
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:08 PM   #45
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

Heylll NO..........
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