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Old 06-27-2007, 05:02 PM   #46
Gabriel R.
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

To me, he was the most convincing of the four title holders at that time. It's a matter of definition if this is the criteria for being the legitimate champion or if it's not. However, I considered him the best in the division, but unfortunately he couldn't prove it often enough. Fights with guys like Rahman, Brewster, Peter or a rematch with Byrd would have been important. So I can well understand if people didn't see him as the legitimate champion.
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Old 06-28-2007, 04:02 AM   #47
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel R.
To me, he was the most convincing of the four title holders at that time. It's a matter of definition if this is the criteria for being the legitimate champion or if it's not. However, I considered him the best in the division, but unfortunately he couldn't prove it often enough. Fights with guys like Rahman, Brewster, Peter or a rematch with Byrd would have been important. So I can well understand if people didn't see him as the legitimate champion.

I didn't think Peter was that well established at the time.
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Old 06-28-2007, 04:07 PM   #48
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

It really had nothing to do with the Lennox fight.... Remember, Corrie Sanders had to drop the belt that he took from Wlad in order to fight Vitali.... I think that's why vitali got the ring magazine title...
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Old 06-28-2007, 04:10 PM   #49
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

not the undisputed champ but clearly the #1 hw kinda how wlad is seen right now.
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Old 06-28-2007, 08:37 PM   #50
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sand

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Well, let me ask you this.... if Vitali didn't earn the spot as #1 heavyweight in the world, then who did? Neither Ruiz, nor Byrd accomplished anything as much as what Vitali accomplished in the short time which he did.
From end of 01 to end of 04, here are those guys records.



Vitlay

Dec 01 - W TKO Ross Purrity
FEb 02 - W TKO Vaughn Bean
Nov 02 - W TKO Larry Donald
Jun 03 - L TKO Lennox Lewis
Dec 03 - W TKO Kirk Johnson
April 04 - W TKO Corrie Sanders
Dec 04 - W TKO Danny Williams

BYRD

Aug 01 - W UD David Tua
June 02 - W TKO Jeff Pegues
Dec 02 - W UD Evander Holyfield
Sep 03 - W UD Fres Oquendo
April 04 - D Andrew Golota
Nov 04 - W SD Jameel McCline


Ruiz

Dec 01 - D Evander Holyfield
Jul 02 - W DQ Kirk Johnson
Mar 03 - L UD Roy Jones JR
Dec 03 - W UD Hasim Rahman
April 04 - W TKO Fres Oquendo
Nov 04 - W UD Andrew Golota.



So quite rightly, Vitlay was about middle of the top 10 before he fought Lewis.

A loss to him, and win over Kirk Johnson propels you up the rankings????

Byrd and Ruiz both beat more top 10 rated guys. I don't care how, you have to go on official results.

They deserved to be ranked at least as high as Vitlay on achievements at that point in time. But those guys certainly didn't rank as high on ability to sell magazines. Why do you think Vitlay shot up the rankings like that?
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Old 06-28-2007, 09:08 PM   #51
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

It's because how Vitaly beat them. Vitaly destoyed Johnson in 2 rounds when most people at the time thought it would be a close fight.He battered Sanders badly and made Williams do the funky chicken dance a couple times before KOing him badly. when Byrd and Ruiz always won close disputed decisions and had very boring fights.
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Old 06-28-2007, 09:12 PM   #52
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX
It's because how Vitaly beat them. Vitaly destoyed Johnson ..........battered Sanders badly ............made Williams do the funky chicken dance.
That brings up another discussion, altogether;

When ranking a fighter, do you determine his ranking only by the fighters he has defeated........or..........do you also take into account the manner in which he beat his opponents, as in how decisive the victory was.......????????
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Old 06-28-2007, 09:17 PM   #53
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

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Originally Posted by Heavyrighthand
That brings up another discussion, altogether;

When ranking a fighter, do you determine his ranking only by the fighters he has defeated........or..........do you also take into account the manner in which he beat his opponents, as in how decisive the victory was.......????????
well technically you shouldn't but trying to figure out out how the ABC's come up with rankings is mind boggling at best. So I think this can be taken into account as seeing as there is no structurd point system.
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Old 06-28-2007, 09:17 PM   #54
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

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Originally Posted by KobeIsGod
not the undisputed champ but clearly the #1 hw kinda how wlad is seen right now.
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Old 06-28-2007, 09:20 PM   #55
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

He was a good titleholder, but NEVER the World HW Champion.
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Old 06-28-2007, 09:26 PM   #56
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavyrighthand
That brings up another discussion, altogether;

When ranking a fighter, do you determine his ranking only by the fighters he has defeated........or..........do you also take into account the manner in which he beat his opponents, as in how decisive the victory was.......????????

You obviously have to consider the performance. Result + Performance.

The Ring does it.

Vitali deserves much more credit for his win against Kirk Johnson than Ruiz.
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Old 06-28-2007, 09:34 PM   #57
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sanders?

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Originally Posted by Asterion
You obviously have to consider the performance. Result + Performance.

The Ring does it.

Vitali deserves much more credit for his win against Kirk Johnson than Ruiz.
I think they do take the manner of the win into account, but then again, in my personal opinion, that can make the rankings too subjective and a matter of personal opinion, which it should not be. I think they should make the ranking determination guidelines as far removed form personal opinion, as possible. It will obviously be somewhat speculative, but it shoud be as concrete/cut and dried, as they can make it.

Last edited by Heavyrighthand; 06-28-2007 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 06-28-2007, 09:46 PM   #58
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterion
You obviously have to consider the performance. Result + Performance.

The Ring does it.

Vitali deserves much more credit for his win against Kirk Johnson than Ruiz.
WHOOOAAAA back there.

Johnson weighed 238 against Ruiz.

He weighed 260 against Vitlay


If you want to start playing that game, then Ruiz deserves more credit IMO. Even though it was bogus the way he got the DQ, Johnson was a frickin whale against Vitlay.
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:58 PM   #59
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sand

Quote:
Originally Posted by thesandman
WHOOOAAAA back there.

Johnson weighed 238 against Ruiz.

He weighed 260 against Vitlay


If you want to start playing that game, then Ruiz deserves more credit IMO. Even though it was bogus the way he got the DQ, Johnson was a frickin whale against Vitlay.
yes, but he's KO'd in round 2 so stamina wasn't the factor
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Old 06-28-2007, 11:05 PM   #60
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Default Re: Did anyone accept VITALI as the legitimate heavyweight champion when he beat Sand

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Originally Posted by AJAX
yes, but he's KO'd in round 2 so stamina wasn't the factor
I'm not talking about stamina.

I'm talking about how fat he was. How little preparation he'd obviously put in.

How much he was actually prepared to TRY. Coming in to fight in that shape just shows that he basically just rocked up for the paycheck, with no intention of trying to win.

You seriously think that all being 260 effects is stamina????? How about speed, mobility etc?

****, how could vitlay miss him at that weight?
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