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Old 07-25-2012, 05:32 PM   #76
Webbiano
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Default Re: Prime: Muhammad Ali .Vs. Larry Holmes

Would be an incredibly close fight, but you gotta say, if Ali wouldn't nick it on our scorecards, the judges would have given it to him by 3 or 4 rounds. Holmes could definitely beat a prime Ali.

Last edited by Webbiano; 07-25-2012 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 07-25-2012, 06:08 PM   #77
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Default Re: Prime: Muhammad Ali .Vs. Larry Holmes

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I'm totally amazed that anyone thinks a prime Ali would have an easy time with Holmes. I think that Holmes has the perfect style to give Ali serious problems. Many fighters couldn't match Ali because he was so good on the outside with his movement, speed and jab. Those were his three main tools. Yes, he had a right hand and combinations but for the vast majority of his time during his prime it was movement and boxing ability with the jab. Holmes has more than enough speed behind his own jab, while coming forward, to catch Ali regularly. And he's got the ability to bang Ali to the body when he closed the distance. No doubt, Ali would grab and wait for distance again to box behind the jab and throw right hands, etc. Ali would get the best of the outside work between them both, slightly. This is a hard nights work for Ali, to put it mildly.
I don't see how Holmes has the perfect style for Ali. You seemed to outline a mix of boxing and aggression for Holmes. Holmes surely needs to be aggressive with his jab. The problem is Ali's movement, speed, and reflexes are just about as good as any human HW could be.

I think Holmes would need to be unpredictable as possible to have a chance to win. Lead with the jab to bust Ali's rhythm, and then fall off to force Ali into leading. Ali was not the best at leading, especially during his 60's peak reign where used a lot of movement and speed. In the 70's Ali improved at feinting, throwing a fighter's off and then leading (He feinted well against Folley but that was largely in an act of setting traps and partly for showmanship sake. Ali improved it feinting with aggression in the 70's).

If Larry strictly just tries to out-duel Ali in a boxing match the way I'd expect him to fight (The way he normally did) I think he'd inevitably got out bested by a fighter that's basically a better version of himself. Larry can try getting too aggressive but there are plenty of other fighters more adept at the task of pressuring Ali. If he gets too aggressive it could play in Ali's hands a bit more.
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:55 AM   #78
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Default Re: Prime: Muhammad Ali .Vs. Larry Holmes

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Originally Posted by road_warrior_99 View Post
Ali and Holmes are even many categories, but a prime ALI had a tremendous advantage with movement and foot speed. I believe ALI would have had a one-sided Unanimous Decision win over Holmes.
I agree with the first part. Ali had better foot quickness in and out than Holmes. That is his biggest advantage.

I dont see a one sided decision either way though.

If you could jab with Ali or maybe in Holmes case outjab him then you have a shot at beating him. You can break his timing. Holmes was quick himself and had terrific timing and ring smarts.

Prime Larry Holmes isnt an easy out for anyone.
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Old 07-26-2012, 01:57 AM   #79
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Default Re: Prime: Muhammad Ali .Vs. Larry Holmes

I don't think it's that people over rate Larry in this one I think it's more that people under rate Ali in this one - I don't know whether it psychological coz people can't shift the image of Larry obviously being the daddy against an ill Ali? But for me, if Ali was too quick all round for someone like Floyd Patterson then he's definately gunna be to quick for Larry. And if Sonny Liston and Earnie Terrell could barely hit him with jabs then I don't see Larry having that much more success with his jab either. Psychologically Larry wouldn't worry Ali and remember Larry was merely a sparring partner for an early-to-mid 70's Ali and the mid 60's version was a different animal altogether - Holmes was a competetive SOB and he had his own huge ego aswell so he'd be trying to look better all the while and press Ali but I just don't see him being good enough to beat Ali in all honesty - tale end Norton pushed Holmes all the way and Shavers was this close to stopping Holmes - and for instance Ali dominated Norton for first two thirds of second fight - absolutely put a show on - which shows me the difference between Ali and Holmes - and that was only the 70's version of Ali - the 60's version I think was a different class to Larry Holmes
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:57 AM   #80
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Default Re: Prime: Muhammad Ali .Vs. Larry Holmes

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Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose View Post
I don't think it's that people over rate Larry in this one I think it's more that people under rate Ali in this one - I don't know whether it psychological coz people can't shift the image of Larry obviously being the daddy against an ill Ali? But for me, if Ali was too quick all round for someone like Floyd Patterson then he's definately gunna be to quick for Larry. And if Sonny Liston and Earnie Terrell could barely hit him with jabs then I don't see Larry having that much more success with his jab either. Psychologically Larry wouldn't worry Ali and remember Larry was merely a sparring partner for an early-to-mid 70's Ali and the mid 60's version was a different animal altogether - Holmes was a competetive SOB and he had his own huge ego aswell so he'd be trying to look better all the while and press Ali but I just don't see him being good enough to beat Ali in all honesty - tale end Norton pushed Holmes all the way and Shavers was this close to stopping Holmes - and for instance Ali dominated Norton for first two thirds of second fight - absolutely put a show on - which shows me the difference between Ali and Holmes - and that was only the 70's version of Ali - the 60's version I think was a different class to Larry Holmes
The reason Holmes would have a better time jabbing with, or even outjabbing Ali than Liston and Terrell had is because Larry's jab was much faster, much more accurate, and it carried plenty of hurt. Liston's jab was very, very heavy, but it wasn't nearly as quick or accurate as Holmes's was.

Keep in mind that when Holmes was Ali's sparring partner, he was just turning pro while Ali was at the height of his 70s fighting abilities. The fact that Holmes was Ali's top sparring partner that early on speaks a lot of his fighting skills. Comparing wins against common oponents, Holmes while younger and much closer to prime than Ali was, did indeed beat the oponents in better fashion. Holmes dropped a total of 1 round to Shavers in their two fights combined, and Holmes still won the majority of the round. Shavers caught Larry being stupid and dropped him with his hardest, clean shot and Larry still got up to make it through the round. Out of a total of 23 rounds with Shavers, Holmes was only dropped once and lost a total of 1 round. That is extremely impressive. Ali, while clearly past his prime, went life and death with Shavers and managed to win a close fight. Holmes too dominated Norton for the first 2/3 of their fight. I've never agreed with the judges in the Holmes-Norton fight. I thought Larry already had the fight won after 10 completed rounds and that it wasn't a dead even fight going into the 15th. Even if I did have it dead even going into the 15th, then I would have Norton as the winner because imo he won that last round.

I don't see either Ali or Holmes getting into the other's head. Both were very strong mentally and the two trying to get into eachother's head would be like using a flimsy rubber saw to try and cut into a tree. It just wouldn't work.

In a prime vs prime fight, I would see Ali likely winning 2 out of 3 close fights. His movement and flurries would be what won him the fights. Holmes, while he had extremely fast hands and a better jab than Ali, would not be able to flurry and win against Ali. He'd be able to outslug him and dig hard shots to the body, but Ali would dance in with quick flurries and dance away before Holmes could get the better of it.
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:28 PM   #81
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Default Re: Prime: Muhammad Ali .Vs. Larry Holmes

Ali outboxed Holmes. Anything Larry does, Ali can do better. He's quicker, he's more mobile, he's also thougher - I doubt Larry threw a punch in his career that would have troubled Muhammad Ali.

Ali takes a decison win. Mobility and combination punching being the difference maker.
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:48 PM   #82
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Default Re: Prime: Muhammad Ali .Vs. Larry Holmes

Ali in his prime (1964-67) would have beaten Holmes comfortably.

I might even back the best 70s versions of Ali to beat Holmes in a close one as well.
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:46 PM   #83
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Default Re: Prime: Muhammad Ali .Vs. Larry Holmes

Jab and move, jab and move, that's all it would take. Ali could do this for the whole fight and holmes could do nothing to stop him. Ali by unanimous decision
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:59 PM   #84
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Default Re: Prime: Muhammad Ali .Vs. Larry Holmes

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Jab and move, jab and move, that's all it would take. Ali could do this for the whole fight and holmes could do nothing to stop him. Ali by unanimous decision
What about jab with Ali?
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:21 PM   #85
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Default Re: Prime: Muhammad Ali .Vs. Larry Holmes

Larry Holmes wins it. He was almost as fast, hit harder, took a punch equally well, had a jab that would trouble Ali a lot. Holmes was more grounded, his jab had more pop, and he wouldn't have trouble keeping pace with Ali. Sorry folks, but Muhammad is not invincible, and I feel there are a handful - a small handful- of heavyweights in history who stylistically had what it took to beat Ali.


NO MAN IS INVINCIBLE.
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:00 PM   #86
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Default Re: Prime: Muhammad Ali .Vs. Larry Holmes

Everyone seems to be looking at Larry's point of view. What about Ali and how he approaches it? It shouldn't be just as easy as; Ali just does what Ali does. Holme's jab certainly poses a threat to cause big problems for Ali, so what happens if it would have? What if Holmes boxes off the back foot and refuses to exchange with Ali? Is his offensive boxing coming forward enough to get past Larrys defence, or would Larry be able to counter Ali on his way in?

Holmes would give Ali problems. He's to good a boxer not to, but can a young and fairly inexperienced and fairly untested Ali really dig deep like the Ali in the RITJ or TIM? Or would he meet his match and fall short in the championship rounds much like he did in the FOTC?

It would be a great fight, and certainly not one side by any means. I would favour Ali in this match up, but those dismissing it and suggesting Ali dominates Holmes are fools, or blinded by Ali's greatness
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:23 PM   #87
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Default Re: Prime: Muhammad Ali .Vs. Larry Holmes

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Originally Posted by Bill1234 View Post
What about jab with Ali?
Holmes jab would have been a bit bothersome for the first few rounds but Ali would have adapted to it and begin to really take over. Holmes was a great fighter (top 5 heavy in my book) but his greatest weakness would play right into the hands of one of ali's greatest assets: his ability to move and punch at the same time with lightening speed. Holmes just wasn't very effective at cutting off a mover (he showed this in their "fight"), and Ali would have taken terrible advantage of that, fustrating him and making him more vurnerable.

As the late, great archie moore once said, Ali was too well rounded in boxing knowledge to let any one particular thing stop him.
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:34 PM   #88
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Default Re: Prime: Muhammad Ali .Vs. Larry Holmes

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Originally Posted by leverage View Post
Holmes jab would have been a bit bothersome for the first few rounds but Ali would have adapted to it and begin to really take over. Holmes was a great fighter (top 5 heavy in my book) but his greatest weakness would play right into the hands of one of ali's greatest assets: his ability to move and punch at the same time with lightening speed. Holmes just wasn't very effective at cutting off a mover (he showed this in their "fight"), and Ali would have taken terrible advantage of that, fustrating him and making him more vurnerable.

As the late, great archie moore once said, Ali was too well rounded in boxing knowledge to let any one particular thing stop him.
Holmes could punch and move. While he never done it as regularly as a prime Ali, punching and moving behind the jab wasn't a problem for Holmes. I certainly wouldn't put it down as a weakness.
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:09 PM   #89
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Default Re: Prime: Muhammad Ali .Vs. Larry Holmes

Ali has to be able to beat Holmes pretty dominantly prime for prime. I am not saying that there would not be moments but Ali should be able to adapt to anything Larry does and was more versatile. I think a UD for Ali unless he gets aggressive with the right hand and RSF
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:09 PM   #90
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Default Re: Prime: Muhammad Ali .Vs. Larry Holmes

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Originally Posted by Vince Voltage View Post
Larry Holmes wins it. He was almost as fast, hit harder, took a punch equally well, had a jab that would trouble Ali a lot. Holmes was more grounded, his jab had more pop, and he wouldn't have trouble keeping pace with Ali. Sorry folks, but Muhammad is not invincible, and I feel there are a handful - a small handful- of heavyweights in history who stylistically had what it took to beat Ali.


NO MAN IS INVINCIBLE.
The main reasons why Ali would win by a clear decision against Holmes is because of his right hand- holmes was way too vulnerable to that punch. and plus, ali's foot speed would be the deciding factor. Larry Holmes doesn't win whatsoever. sorry Vince.
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