Marvin Hagler v.s Harry Greb

[MRBILL]

I saw Hagler up close in the early to mid-80s........... Hagler was the man...... A solid package......... KO mag's # 1 man from 1984 thru 1986....... HAGLER!!

MR.BILL

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by janitor

It must be a hard life being a Greb critic.

You can't try to pull his record apart and those of his key opponents, because you would be here till kingdom come.

The only way to do it is to drop a hydrogen bomb on the entire era by saying that everybody in that era sucked, so it dosn't matter what he achieved.

Of course this approach produces a huge fallout, and considerable colateral damage to adjacent eras.

Janitor, well said...
To the naysayers,spouting the old bromide, "well I have not seen any film of Greb, therefore the vast majority of historians, who have seen and lauded him doesn't count, for I am omnipotent "...That is in effect what bthey are implying. No Less.
And of course they saw the clip of Greb ,recently discovered,showing Harry in 1925 ,clowning around with a 50ish Phil.Jack O'Brien who owned
the gym,preparing for Greb's bout with the great Mickey Walker, who
Greb soundly whipped...Do they think that this is the REAL harry Greb
who terrorized three divisions of many GREAT Hall of Fame fighters.
Do they think that Charlie Chaplin walked differently than they do, watching his films ? Than they are sadly mistaken or boxing fans who
have not read and ABSORBED, the fabulous and unique career of a
middleweight, who [it bears repeating] licked the likes of Tunney, Gibbons,Loughran, Jack Dillon, Battling Levinsky,Gunboatr Smith, Maxie
Rosenbloom.Brennan etc,and a host of other great fighters in a hectic
career of 300 bouts...Most of these guys came from a tough era ,and
fought over 100 times..They fought without mouthpieces, with thin gloves,no 3 knockdown rules, no A/C hotel rooms etc. But they had
full time trainers, numerous more opponents which hardened them
fighting so often...These fighters from my fathers time were no
Neanderthals, I can assure you...
Hagler was great , but Greb was immortal...

[Jorodz]

ring magazine did an interesting article about this in their best fights you never saw issue, they gave greb a VERY close fight.

i have trouble with this one as stylistically it could go many ways and i don't want to pick greb on reflex. i think as Duodenum pointed out vito may be the closest that hagler faced. an all action, dirty fighting, non stop swarmer though is different though that the mosquito.

i see hagler starting out slow, as always and losing the first 3. after which he starts snaring out the jab and steals back some rounds. greb comes back in the middle rounds and hagler has trouble keeping him off. marvin, always a small middleweight, cannot match grebs strength but he causes some confusion switch hitting and sticks with the southpaw stance.

greb is leading on points after 10 and hagler is cut but he turns into a brawler in the 11th, hoping his superior firepower can turn the tide. greb is taken aback at not having to chase hagler down and drops the next two rounds.

the final 3 rounds are fiercly fought, with the fight nearly on even terms. Hagler though is suprised when greb sits down on his punches and loses the last 2 in a wild, final 6 minutes

Greb SD Hagler

[SLAKKA]

Originally Posted by MRBILL

Hagler is too skilled and rounded for Greb...... Greb is made-to-order for the likes of Hagler...........

Hagler always excelled on maulers / brawlers who forced the action...... Boxers (Duran & Leonard) who kept there distance and gave different angles troubled Hagler to a degree.......

Harry Greb was solid and great at 160, but he was no slickster with finess, etc......

Hagler gets to Greb late....... HAGLER!!

MR.BILL

This is an anti Greb description if ever a read one. Gene Tunneys said Greb possessed a ring cunning far beyond estimates made of him in the press.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by Jorodz

ring magazine did an interesting article about this in their best fights you never saw issue, they gave greb a VERY close fight.

i have trouble with this one as stylistically it could go many ways and i don't want to pick greb on reflex. i think as Duodenum pointed out vito may be the closest that hagler faced. an all action, dirty fighting, non stop swarmer though is different though that the mosquito.

i see hagler starting out slow, as always and losing the first 3. after which he starts snaring out the jab and steals back some rounds. greb comes back in the middle rounds and hagler has trouble keeping him off. marvin, always a small middleweight, cannot match grebs strength but he causes some confusion switch hitting and sticks with the southpaw stance.

greb is leading on points after 10 and hagler is cut but he turns into a brawler in the 11th, hoping his superior firepower can turn the tide. greb is taken aback at not having to chase hagler down and drops the next two rounds.

the final 3 rounds are fiercly fought, with the fight nearly on even terms. Hagler though is suprised when greb sits down on his punches and loses the last 2 in a wild, final 6 minutes

Greb SD Hagler

There is a world of difference between a Vito A and Greb stylistically.
Vito was a tough plodder who was in your face and cut easely around the face..Greb had a style that would bewilder an opponent...He was bouncing around on his toes, throwing volleys of punches from every possible angle
into his opponent with accuracy..He was tireless from start to finish, and Greb SELDOM cut ...As Tunney described Greb ,"he couldn't be timed ".
Just think of Greb fighting from town to town bi-weekly ,larger men of
all styles,not seeing film of his opponents, and PREVAILING!
What fortitude stamina and ability that required in 300 fights..
Hagler with only 67 fights, and great as he was, could have never duplicated the career of the Pittsburgh Windmill...That is why Greb was
unique !!!

[janitor]

Originally Posted by MRBILL

I saw Hagler up close in the early to mid-80s........... Hagler was the man...... A solid package......... KO mag's # 1 man from 1984 thru 1986....... HAGLER!!

MR.BILL

I envy you on having seen some Hagler action up close.

[Jorodz]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

There is a world of difference between a Vito A and Greb stylistically.
Vito was a tough plodder who was in your face and cut easely around the face..Greb had a style that would bewilder an opponent...He was bouncing around on his toes, throwing volleys of punches from every possible angle
into his opponent with accuracy..He was tireless from start to finish, and Greb SELDOM cut ...As Tunney described Greb ,"he couldn't be timed ".
Just think of Greb fighting from town to town bi-weekly ,larger men of
all styles,not seeing film of his opponents, and PREVAILING!
What fortitude stamina and ability that required in 300 fights..
Hagler with only 67 fights, and great as he was, could have never duplicated the career of the Pittsburgh Windmill...That is why Greb was
unique !!!

oh for certain. Vito A was the CLOSEST to greb imo (could be wrong) but he's not that close to be honest. for my money, hagler is probably the 2nd best middleweight of all time. from the caveman lee fight until hearns I would only put money on one fighter against him: harry greb. not even robinson. at 160 he was the most complete middleweight i've ever seen and one of the best at any weight. even money with monzon but only greb i feel should be favoured

[manbearpig]

No way of making an educated analysis until film of him fighting is unearthed.

[Pachilles]

Originally Posted by janitor

Do you honestly think that Hagler would hang with Tunney based on the film evidence?

Be honest.

I honestly do. He'd beat Jack Dempsey also.

[Jersey Joe]

The one thing no MW can do with Hagler is go after him. It just fires him up and he has the toughness, conditioning and skills to fuck up any boxer who tries to take the fight to him. Look at what happened to Mugabi, Hearns, every other guy who tried to take him out. Greb has exactly that aggressive style, and the one fighter he struggled with was tough boxer-puncher Gene Tunney.

The way to beat Hagler is to be less aggressive and outbox him, like Leonard, or Duran did at times. Marvin was excessively respectful to his better opponents and that could be exploited.

So IMO, if Greb does his usual aggressive game, I would favour Hagler slightly to win this. He has the toughness, stamina and boxing skills to do well against a swarming type fighter. Hagler was a superb inside fighter, even though he rarely did it. Check out his last couple of rounds vs Duran, roughing him up with precise inside punching, and Roberto was no slouch.

[Jersey Joe]

Originally Posted by heerko koois

Hagler by ko .........

Greb was KOd once in over 300 fights, at age 19. And he fought LHWs and a few HWs. I doubt he is getting KOd by Hagler.

[TheBradyHawkes]

Originally Posted by manbearpig

No way of making an educated analysis until film of him fighting is unearthed.

This. I find these type of hypotheticals impossible to imagine with fighters that have little to no footage available. I also rate Hagler above Greb at MW for that very reason.

[MRBILL]

Originally Posted by SLAKKA

This is an anti Greb description if ever a read one. Gene Tunneys said Greb possessed a ring cunning far beyond estimates made of him in the press.

Yeah, but Gene Tunney never knew or ever even heard of Hagler before..... Tunney took his last breath of air in 1978 when Hagler was an up and comer at 160 for Christ Sakes.....

Sure, okay, so Tunney dropped a nod to Greb when Tunney was still kinda' green, but last I checked, Tunney got back at Greb with 3 or 4 wins between the pair as time went on......

ALSO! I never said Hagler of 1981 who was a peaked 160 pounds of ripped muscle, could ever beat the mid-20s to late-20s version of Gene Tunney who was easily 185 to 192 pounds of toned muscle on his 6' frame......

I still say at 160 Hagler is too skilled and good for the legendary and fabled Grebbermeister.......

MR.BILL

[MRBILL]

I can't see or envision Harold Greb feinting and turning Hagler in the manner that boxer / puncher's like "Duran and Leonard" were able to do in 1983 and in 1987 against Hagler.......

I picture Greb attacking Hagler in the manner of "Roldan and Mugabi." Okay, we all know Hagler had his hands full there, but, he did prevail big time in the end.......

And, yes, my balls, brain, brawn and guts do indicate that I will rate the 1984 and 1986 versions of Juan Roldan and John Mugabi in the same class as of a Harold Greb of 1923.... Both Roldan and Mugabi were primed to wage war on Marvin Hagler upon getting their title shots..........

MR.BILL

[Senya13]

Originally Posted by MRBILL

Boxers (Duran & Leonard) who kept there distance and gave different angles troubled Hagler to a degree.......

Greb was using angles like no other boxer, and due to his always being on his toes, he was in with a punch or few, and out at a distance before the opponent desided to throw something in return.