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Old 06-27-2007, 01:30 PM   #1
Arthur
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Default If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Joe Frazier won his title after Ali was stripped. After losing to Foreman he never regained it. I can't help but wondering if Ali hadn't been stripped would Frazier of ever been a champion and remembered so well today??

for the record i'm not hating on Smoking Joe, i like him a lot actually.
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Old 06-27-2007, 01:35 PM   #2
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Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Chances are he would've got himself into title contention, would've faced Ali, Ali would've pissed him off, and the chain of events would probably be no different than what they actually were, only difference being Ali would've gone into the first fight as heavyweight champion. So.. yes, Frazier would've been champion, I think.
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Old 06-27-2007, 01:36 PM   #3
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Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

50/50. If the fight was made in 69 it would be very interesting,with Ali probably getting a competitive decision (say 9-6), but Frazier would be up and coming, and rawer than in 71, so may have got the nod.
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Old 06-27-2007, 01:46 PM   #4
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Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Here's the thing: regardless of who won the first one, there would always have been a rematch on account of what a good fight it would always be. So yeah, I see Frazier taking one of the two decisions. I'd always give Joe at least one out of the three. People go on about Norton but I see peak Joe as the real nightmare for Ali.
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:12 PM   #5
Luigi1985
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Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepping It
Ali would have outboxed him. He would have had vastly more experience and would have made the changes he needed to make as he aged gradually instead of working out the bugs after the Frazier fight.


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Old 06-27-2007, 02:20 PM   #6
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Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

I don't see why not. Frazier won their first encounter, even flooring Ali. Years earlier Ali would have been sharper, but I still see Joe winning the title.
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepping It
Ali would have outboxed him. He would have had vastly more experience and would have made the changes he needed to make as he aged gradually instead of working out the bugs after the Frazier fight.

I think he would have been a very different fighter, but whether he would have been better or worse, who's to say?
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:42 PM   #8
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Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Here's the thing: regardless of who won the first one, there would always have been a rematch on account of what a good fight it would always be. So yeah, I see Frazier taking one of the two decisions. I'd always give Joe at least one out of the three. People go on about Norton but I see peak Joe as the real nightmare for Ali.
Agreed. I do this an active, peak Ali would have earned a decision in the first fight, but we still have to assume that he would have lost something as a result of the fight...which would have allowed Frazier to sqeeze out the rematch.
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:52 PM   #9
Jack Dempsey
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Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Here's the thing: regardless of who won the first one, there would always have been a rematch on account of what a good fight it would always be. So yeah, I see Frazier taking one of the two decisions. I'd always give Joe at least one out of the three. People go on about Norton but I see peak Joe as the real nightmare for Ali.
I'd agree with this
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:53 PM   #10
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Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

I've always felt Frazier was perhaps the man who would have upset Ali had the scenario unfolded like mentioned. Ali, maybe after defending against Quarry, Ellis and Spencer meets Joe around late 1968 and the determined challenger, feeling this could be his one shot at the big time, fights out of his skin and outpoints an over-confident champion.
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:53 PM   #11
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Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Odds are he would have been. There's a good chance he would have beaten Ali in the late '60s, and if not, the odds are that somewhere between '68 and '75, Ali would have lost the title(perhaps to Norton) and there would be a good chance then that Frazier would come in and beat whomever had usurped Ali.
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Old 06-27-2007, 03:06 PM   #12
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Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Odds are he would have been. There's a good chance he would have beaten Ali in the late '60s, and if not, the odds are that somewhere between '68 and '75, Ali would have lost the title(perhaps to Norton) and there would be a good chance then that Frazier would come in and beat whomever had usurped Ali.
There is a chance that Frazier could have picked up the title but it wouldnt have been from Ali. The fights would have resemebled the Holyfield Bowe I in the sense that Frazier puts a valiant effort only to be bested by the the better man.

I do think that Ali would have more than likely lost to Norton. Who in turn would lose to Frazier who in turn would lose to Foreman who would have beat Norton only lose to Ali.

If the premise of the thread is that Frazier winning the title means he can only get it from Ali then no. I'd favor Ali to retain his title.
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Old 06-27-2007, 03:21 PM   #13
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Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironchamp
There is a chance that Frazier could have picked up the title but it wouldnt have been from Ali. The fights would have resemebled the Holyfield Bowe I in the sense that Frazier puts a valiant effort only to be bested by the the better man.
And what makes you say that? Frazier decisively beat Ali in '71. I don't think Ali in '71 was far declined from his peak in the '60s. Do you really believe that the difference was so enormous that it would swing all the way from a decisive win for Frazier to a decisive win for Ali? I absolutely don't. This is a very close fight, and there is a very good chance Frazier wins it.

Quote:
I do think that Ali would have more than likely lost to Norton. Who in turn would lose to Frazier who in turn would lose to Foreman who would have beat Norton only lose to Ali.
What, in your eyes, makes Norton a better candidate for upsetting Ali than Frazier? In real life, Frazier beat the younger, nearer-to-his-peak Ali, and didn't have to do it under the flukish broken-jaw circumstances. Frazier was a better fighter than Norton and came along earlier. I think the odds are very solid that Frazier would win the title from Ali in the late '60s. If not, then the odds would be very solid he would win the title further down the line after someone else(possibly Norton) took the title from Ali(as I mentioned in my last post in this thread).
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Old 06-27-2007, 04:58 PM   #14
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Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

No. In my estimation, Smoke had already achieved a HOF resume by the FOTC, but Ali had been dreadful in his previous performance against Ringo, and rushed into their first match in the expectation that the US Supreme Court as composed by Nixon was not going to rule in Ali's favor.

If Ali had never been reclassified to 1A for the draft, had gone to Tokyo to decision Bonavena on May 24, 1967, and continued from there, he probably would have decisioned Frazier in a meeting similar to their 1974 12 rounder, pre-emptively intercepting Smoke before he was ready to challenge for the title.

Even if Ali had his wisdom tooth removed in a timely fashion so that his jaw could never be broken, I expect that Ken Norton, with Eddie Futch's guidance, would have been the challenger to eventually break Ali's winning streak. While Frazier would have defeated Norton had they ever met, the fact is that their paths never crossed in competition, and may not have with Norton holding the title. Ali would have regained the championship from Ken in an immediate rematch anyway. (Much of Norton's legacy is wrapped up in this assumption, while Frazier's is diluted by stepping into the void left by Ali's exile. That's very unfair to Smoke, who provided HW boxing with a needed redeemer at a crucial time, as did Holmes after Ali, and Tyson after Holmes. HW boxing is now in a dreary limbo which could use a Frazier today.)

Ali wouldn't have sustained the debilitating punishment he withstood in the FOTC, but would have experienced a hectic enough challenge to regard Joe as a serious challenge in a rematch. If Ali had repelled a Frazier challenge the year he entered into exile, it's entirely possible that Joe would have needed to defeat Foreman in order to secure another shot. That would have been an extremely difficult obstacle for Joe to overcomne stylistically, one that didn't bode well for Smoke ever having an opportunity to become champion afterwards.
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Old 06-27-2007, 05:08 PM   #15
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

I think Frazier would've beaten Ali regardless. Something that not many (except for MDWC) take into account is that if Ali went on to beat more challengers, he'd suffer the same over-confidence sloppy-training syndrom that nearly everyone else did. A look into his career in the 70's certainly shows that he was underprepaired for some fights, the first Norton one being most the obvious one.
In 1971, Ali was in terrific shape, threw 60 punches a round over 15 rounds and went the distance dispite eating tons of huge left hooks. A 10 pound overweight Ali in 69 may well have been a lesser fighter.

But even an in-shape Ali at his peak would've always had big problems with Frazier.
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