Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-27-2007, 05:19 PM   #16
Jear
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 787
vCash: 1000
Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

If Ali fights through to 69-70 he is significantly better than 71 post layoff, Joe is possibly a little greener. Being champ seems to give something mentally to the holder. Joe is always tough for Ali but unless he wins the first fight he doesnt beat Ali. Ali is just that bit sharper, bit more stamina without the layoff.

Joe took a lot out of Ali in FOTC but Joe himself was never quite the same afterwards either.

One more thing to consider; Joe himself has said that he wanted that fight so bad because Alis shadow hung over his lack of respect as champ at the time, would that same motivation and belief have been there as a challenger?
Jear is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 06-28-2007, 06:25 AM   #17
TBooze
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: South of London
Posts: 10,849
vCash: 215
Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

If Ali had not been stripped, I think he would of gone to retire in 68 anyway, and Frazier would of won the Heavyweight Championship of the World. But his reign would of always been tainted by the fact he had not fought Ali.
TBooze is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2007, 06:45 AM   #18
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,226
vCash: 1000
Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur
Joe Frazier won his title after Ali was stripped. After losing to Foreman he never regained it. I can't help but wondering if Ali hadn't been stripped would Frazier of ever been a champion
You can be sure of one thing.

If Ali had beaten him then nobody would be talking about him today.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2007, 07:07 AM   #19
Bummy Davis
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 9,434
vCash: 1000
Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Ali came back a stronger man but Frazier as fit as he was for A/F 1 would have beaten Ali regardless, styles make fights, shame Frazier could not mantain the condition once he became a Big Star,Singer,and Party man, you can not burn the candle at both ends. Ali put his opponents in the spotlight but Frazier rose to the top by being a talented swarmer with a great left hook(ALI's Kryptonite) even a mediocre club fighter like Chuck Wepner was built up because he fought Ali, but I seen Chuck fight and it was horrible, he would not get in the top 50 today. Ali was great but the era was no better than any other IMO
Bummy Davis is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2007, 07:42 AM   #20
groove
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,028
vCash: 1000
Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

What would a 1967 Ali do to Bonavena? Ellis whooped him and he wasn't in Ali's class in the 60s. a 1970 Ali took more punches from Bonavena that most of his fights from 64-67 put together. That's gotta tell you something about the lay-off. But maybe not
groove is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2007, 08:05 AM   #21
Smokin'Joe100
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Birmingham,UK
Posts: 124
vCash: 1000
Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

One question, in his lay-off, was Ali still in the gym regular, like sparring, working out, bag work etc at least 2-3 times a week? Or did he just piss around with politics and hit the gym maybe twice a month?
Smokin'Joe100 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2007, 08:52 AM   #22
groove
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,028
vCash: 1000
Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Ali was touring the country and doing lectures. He even did a play. He was outta condition for the Rocky computer thing. Even Cus mentioned he was in bad fighting shape for that Cassius Clay doc. He would've been training when he had the time but he definitely wasn't in proper professional boxing training - he had to make a living in other ways. He retired from the sport and didn't think he was going to return to the ring. I don't know how much he sparred? That's an interesting question which i would like to find out more. Angelo Dundee or Jimmy Ellis would know. Anyone know how to contact them?
groove is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2007, 10:15 AM   #23
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,582
vCash: 1000
Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Greg Page
If Frazier wasn't blind in one eye, would Ali have beaten him in Manila? Enough with the excuses. Frazier had hypertension going into the first fight, too. Frazier also had diabetes. Certainly all of this cancels out Ali's terrible disease of sitting on a couch for 3 years?

Ali was ready. He looked fine, but he shouldn't have trash talked so much.

Prime Frazier ????
mr. magoo is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2007, 11:49 AM   #24
C. M. Clay II
Manassah's finest!
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 1,138
vCash: 1000
Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

If they fought in '68, Ali would have probably beaten him by a close but definite decision. The fight would have gained enough notoriety for a rematch around 1970, and Ali, now having a psychological advantage would have beaten him again by a wider decision. Ali was still feeling the effects of that layoff. His legs were just not there and he was much more hittable. In addition he was still feeling effects from his last fight with Bonavena, who gave him a tremendous body beating. Three months just wasn't enough to heal from that fight, and that made him run out of gas quicker which also made him more hittable.
C. M. Clay II is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2007, 11:53 AM   #25
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,226
vCash: 1000
Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by C. M. Clay II
If they fought in '68,
I don't think that they would have fought untill about 1970.

Last edited by hdog; 02-04-2006 at 07:59 PM.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2007, 06:14 PM   #26
thunder06
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 652
vCash: 1000
Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Yes. Ali would have taken him lightly and lost at least one of their fights.
thunder06 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2007, 07:04 PM   #27
Marciano Frazier
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,469
vCash: 1000
Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
No. In my estimation, Smoke had already achieved a HOF resume by the FOTC, but Ali had been dreadful in his previous performance against Ringo, and rushed into their first match in the expectation that the US Supreme Court as composed by Nixon was not going to rule in Ali's favor.
Ali was impressive against Quarry, and the Bonavena fight was tough, but he closed it out very well. Back-to-back fights with two of the best contenders alive certainly qualifies as a respectable warm-up for a championship match. Ali may not have been in peak form, but he wasn't far removed when Frazier beat him.

Quote:
While Frazier would have defeated Norton had they ever met, the fact is that their paths never crossed in competition, and may not have with Norton holding the title.
I disagree. Assuming Frazier has lost a title shot at Ali in the late '60s(which I am not convinced he would have) before Ali drops the championship to Norton in the early '70s, Frazier will still be pressing at the absolute front of the pack of contenders for another shot- he was extremely dominant against Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Chuvalo, etc., and would undoubtedly be either the #1 contender or #2(behind Ali) at this time(presumably somewhere from '70 to '72). There is not a half-bad chance that, being so eminently deserving and dominant against the field, Frazier gets a shot at Norton shortly after Norton claims the championship and knocks him out.


Quote:
Ali wouldn't have sustained the debilitating punishment he withstood in the FOTC, but would have experienced a hectic enough challenge to regard Joe as a serious challenge in a rematch. If Ali had repelled a Frazier challenge the year he entered into exile, it's entirely possible that Joe would have needed to defeat Foreman in order to secure another shot. That would have been an extremely difficult obstacle for Joe to overcomne stylistically, one that didn't bode well for Smoke ever having an opportunity to become champion afterwards.
Not necessarily at all. Aside from wins over fringe contenders Peralta and Chuvalo, Foreman did almost nothing but swat around clubfighters prior to his title shot in '73- nearly half of his 37 fights prior to Frazier were against opponents with losing records. Foreman hadn't really created any overly powerful push to get himself into a title eliminator. Frazier could quite possibly have gotten a rematch with Ali without any need to fight Foreman on the way, and would then have still a third shot at the title with a solid chance at winning.

I also think you're wrong in your presumption that Frazier would have fought Ali for the title in '67 if not for the exile. In real life, Frazier was still having stay-busy fights against guys like Scrap Iron Johnson and Marion Connor between serious opponents- it wasn't until '68 that he fought for a belt and started consistently taking on top opponents. I think that is more likely how things would go; Frazier rises through the rankings in '67, and gets a shot at Ali in '68 or '69, when he is starting to absolutely peak out.

So, to sum that all up, I think:
1. There is a good chance Frazier beats Ali in the late '60s and claims the championship.
2. If Frazier loses to Ali in the aforementioned fight, there is a good chance that when Ali is eventually upset somewhere in the late '60s to early '70s, Frazier defeats whoever took the title from Ali(possibly Norton).
3. If Frazier doesn't get the shot at Ali's conqueror and instead Ali regains the title in a rematch, there is a good chance that Frazier takes the title from Ali in a rematch somewhere in '70-73.

Thus, I think there are at least three junctures where Frazier would have a very strong chance at claiming the championship in this hypothetical timeline, and that the odds are he would win the title at at least one of them.
Marciano Frazier is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2007, 07:16 PM   #28
Vantage_West
ヒップホッププロデューサー
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 黒人文化の恋人のサンプリ
Posts: 10,027
vCash: 1000
Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

if frazier might of lost the first fight the 2nd would be different frazier was so hard to beat it's unreal thats why it was so damn scary seeing foreman taking apart the smaller lighter weaker older shot frazier
Vantage_West is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2012, 04:43 PM   #29
ThinBlack
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,384
vCash: 1000
Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Don't see it happening.Frazier would've had to have beaten another fighter to get that world title.Ali was not the one.
ThinBlack is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2012, 05:59 PM   #30
Dempsey1238
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,015
vCash: 1000
Default Re: If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

Ali was not God. He would have lost one to Fraizer. I think they face each other in 69-71 for the first time and I give Joe a good chance in winning in that time frame.
Dempsey1238 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013