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Old 06-29-2007, 07:51 PM   #46
pipe wrenched
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Default Re: Name some fighters who had great potential but wasted it away..

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Tyson... had his management stayed together, Cus lived, and on and on, he probably goes undefeated for many more years.

I say Tyson as well.
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Old 06-30-2007, 07:55 AM   #47
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Default Re: Name some fighters who had great potential but wasted it away..

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
My introduction to Dwight Davison was against Curtis Parker (as it was for most everybody else). The undefeated Parker had made a tremendous impression against David Love and Mike Colbert, then Davison stopped Curtis in his tracks. (If you recall, one ringside observer who was very impressed was Ali.) Next time I saw him, he did the walking tank job against Tony Sibson, and I had no interest in Davison after that performance. (If he'd tried at all, I'm convinced he would have challenged Hagler, as nothing Sibson did could hurt Davison, and it looked to me as if Dwight could manhandle Tony as he did Parker.)
Dwight's win over Parker was noteworthy and he had some talent but many fighters would be more worthy of a mention IMO. Over the course of his career he didn't really do much at all. Sibson was a pretty decent pug tho and got the most of his ability. From memory Sibson won easily didn't he?

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I don't think a Pryor victory over Don Curry would have carried the historic significance his stoppage victories over Arguello has. Alexis did go on to kayo Billy Costello, a perfectly competent former champion. Going into the first bout with Arguello, there was a serious question of whether or not Pryor could win. But the general consensus after his rematch kayo was that Aaron would overwhelm Don Curry. When Pryor was commenting on Leroy Haley's rematch win over Bruce Curry, Pryor didn't mention any interest in facing Bruce's brother, only Ray Mancini. (It was believed that Boom-Boom might be strong enough to stand up to Pryor, while questions about the Curry family chin may have hampered the marketability of a Pryor/Curry match against either brother.)
I think you're concentrating on the wrong time period. Pryor beat Arguello again in late 83. Curry made the wrold sit up and take severe notice thru 84 and 85 culminating in his total anniliation of McCrory. This was December 85. He was ranked the second greatest fighter on earth behind Marvin Hagler. This is the Curry i am thinking of. This is the period i have in mind. If Pryor had not gone off the rails this fight would have been HUGE. Pryor's peak quotient without the drugs and burnout would have been excellent still of course. A victory over this Curry (moving up in weight to boot) would have been definitely more noteworthy than the victory over an aging and up in weight Arguello. Curry's star was bright, a fully fledged 147 pounds, great speed, excellent power, he appeared to have the lot. Personally i think this Curry was too strong, fast, big and technically sound for Pryor and would have stopped him. Pryor's open (and overwhelming at 140) and agressive style would have given Curry, at the peak of his sharpness more than enough chances to close the show IMO.

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Regarding Greg Page, in his post-match evaluation of Greg, Stan Ward made the distinction between speed and quickness, when he said, "He's fast, but he's not that quick." Ward indicated that he could see Page's punches coming, and that a more defensively skilled boxer might make him miss more easily. (Dokes was easily the quickest handed young contender in HW boxing at the time. He delivered shorter punches than Greg, and without telegraphing, especially with his lead hook.) As we've discussed previously, I wasn't impressed with Greg's performance at 220 against Berbick, and felt he was at his competitive best against Marty Monroe, and when Coetzee lit a fire under Page by calling him a jerk. (I only remember Page's win over Snipes because of Camacho's heckling from the ringside audience.)
Personally i've learned not to take too much stock regarding some of the things fighters say when beaten. Page hammered Ward, a very fine heavyweight at the time. As a matter of fact i think Ward quit in his corner. Page certainly had little trouble landing some very substancial shots.

Dokes MAY have been a fraction quicker in his own way. One great writer once said, "Dokes is the fastest heavyweight in boxing - for 3 rounds". In his prime years he did lose snap pretty quick.

Berbick. A few points. This was a big step up for the up and coming Page. He blamed boiling down to a too light weight to please the critics as a significant point in this loss. He also broke his right thumb very early. Regardless Berbick's smothering style and excellent strength was always going to trouble Page at any time. Page's best weight IMO would have been high 220's. The best shape i ever seen him in was Snipes. Perfect weight and good shape.

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I'm sure boxing fans all over the world were tearing their hair out over Eddie. Even when he dethroned Marvin Johnson, he could have ended it in the early rounds. Eddie may be the biggest underachiever of boxing's last 35 years.
Where have you been all my life?!?!!? Totally agree, Eddie was so damn talented it's a fukking tragedy. If he didn't have to lose 30 odd pounds in not time i think he might have taken Spinks. As it was he was smoothly outboxing him before drainage set in and his eye was closed. Sensational talent.
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Old 06-30-2007, 11:09 AM   #48
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Default Re: Name some fighters who had great potential but wasted it away..

Tony Ayala. That guy had extraordinary talent, even as a small child. Besides battering Cuevas at 14, at 9 he KOed a 15 y.o.-in the third round. Not to mention, from age 8 on, he NEVER lost a fight.

Tony would've been the next Hagler, imho. He had the ingredients.
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Old 06-30-2007, 01:35 PM   #49
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Default Re: Name some fighters who had great potential but wasted it away..

You know JT, I can't even contemplate looking at tapes of Eddie's performances without getting frustrated. Lotte Mwale was the only match I saw him in which offered a hint of what he should have achieved. The truth is, he should have dethroned Galindez in 1977, and with his style of boxing, he might STILL be LH champion, for all we know. (If you recall, it looked like Eddie wasn't going to make weight for the Spinks defense, and have to forfeit the title. Saad Muhammad invaded his hotel room, and made him skip rope to take off the excess weight, then loudly encouraged on his WBA counterpart from ringside, as Eddie lost the belt.)

Sibson was a hustler who worked for his wins, and as I recall, he shut Davison out.

Pryor lapsed into cocaine use after the rematch with Arguello, and was no longer going to be competitive by the time Donald Curry emerged as a top P4P contender. Taking into account your expectation that Curry would have been too much for Aaron (and you may well be right), then Pryor may indeed have carried his legacy as far as it could go, and would have risked diminishing it with a high profile loss to Don Curry. In the popular imagination, Pryor's career ended with the Arguello rematch.

Stan Ward did indeed quit in his corner, and I think he may have been citing a thumb in his eye as the reason. Normally, I'd automatically dismiss comments from a defeated boxer in a situation like that, yet Ward did sprinkle in some positive observations about Page, along with the less flattering impressions. Although his most well known win was over Coetzee, his best condition probably was for Snipes. Still, I'm not convinced that sustaining that level of fitness could have transformed Greg into a dominant champion. Holmes was far more impressive against Renaldo. (Aside from Snipes's knockdown, in a round I only scored 10-9 for Snipes, I had Larry pitching a shutout. Under Olympic scoring rules, Larry would have won the knockdown round outright. In both title defenses where Larry was floored, those knockdowns were the only thing preventing Larry from pitching shutouts when those matches were stopped.)

Concerning Dokes, speed can certainly diminish over the course of a match, just as punching power can, so it shouldn't be surprising that Dokes was no exception.
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Old 06-30-2007, 01:37 PM   #50
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Default Re: Name some fighters who had great potential but wasted it away..

I always thought Vitali Klitschko had great potential that he wasted by retiring.
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Old 06-30-2007, 03:13 PM   #51
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Default Re: Name some fighters who had great potential but wasted it away..

Aaron Pryor
Paulie Ayala
Naz
Diego Corrales
David Tua
Michael Nunn
Leon Spinks
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Old 06-30-2007, 03:18 PM   #52
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Default Re: Name some fighters who had great potential but wasted it away..

Tony Santana.
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Old 06-30-2007, 03:20 PM   #53
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Default Re: Name some fighters who had great potential but wasted it away..

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Originally Posted by Black Eyes To You
Leon Spinks

Spinks is a funny one. He definitely pissed away what talent he had but he overachieved massively in becoming undsiputed heavy champ.
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Old 06-30-2007, 03:25 PM   #54
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Default Re: Name some fighters who had great potential but wasted it away..

James Broad
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Old 06-30-2007, 03:25 PM   #55
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Default Re: Name some fighters who had great potential but wasted it away..

'
Quote:
Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
Spinks is a funny one. He definitely pissed away what talent he had but he overachieved massively in becoming undsiputed heavy champ.
Agreed. Always wondered in the back of my mind 'what if' with him though.
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Old 06-30-2007, 03:40 PM   #56
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Default Re: Name some fighters who had great potential but wasted it away..

tapia
marquez has had a great career but it really could have been so much more
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Old 06-30-2007, 04:06 PM   #57
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Default Re: Name some fighters who had great potential but wasted it away..

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tapia
marquez has had a great career but it really could have been so much more
Johnny Tapia is one of my favorite fighters but I think he did the best with the tools he had and actually more with the attitude he carried.
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Old 06-30-2007, 08:19 PM   #58
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Default Re: Name some fighters who had great potential but wasted it away..

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
You know JT, I can't even contemplate looking at tapes of Eddie's performances without getting frustrated. Lotte Mwale was the only match I saw him in which offered a hint of what he should have achieved. The truth is, he should have dethroned Galindez in 1977, and with his style of boxing, he might STILL be LH champion, for all we know. (If you recall, it looked like Eddie wasn't going to make weight for the Spinks defense, and have to forfeit the title. Saad Muhammad invaded his hotel room, and made him skip rope to take off the excess weight, then loudly encouraged on his WBA counterpart from ringside, as Eddie lost the belt.)
Excellent insights there. Eddie had some serious toolage but was far too passive far too often. You being so well versed in the era might remember that robber (Howard Smith?) setting up his supercard, Saad - Eddie, Hearns - Benitez and many more. Saad and Eddie said we can't fight, we are religious brothers. They upped the purse substancially and they changed their minds

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Pryor lapsed into cocaine use after the rematch with Arguello, and was no longer going to be competitive by the time Donald Curry emerged as a top P4P contender. Taking into account your expectation that Curry would have been too much for Aaron (and you may well be right), then Pryor may indeed have carried his legacy as far as it could go, and would have risked diminishing it with a high profile loss to Don Curry. In the popular imagination, Pryor's career ended with the Arguello rematch.
Yeah, this is where we are getting mixed up. I don't believe Pryor wasted his talent in the time he was champ, he wasted it by burning out so soon when he should not have. If not for drugs etc he would have been not far at all from peak and certainly still in his prime when Curry's star burst forth. IMO Pryor peaked around the Arguello fights and was poised to cash in but SRL retired and he burnt out. He was always clamouring for the big fights and money and would have taken Curry on at a whim if still in top form.

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Still, I'm not convinced that sustaining that level of fitness could have transformed Greg into a dominant champion. Holmes was far more impressive against Renaldo. (Aside from Snipes's knockdown, in a round I only scored 10-9 for Snipes, I had Larry pitching a shutout.
Granted Holmes schooled Snipes but the facts are he was so close to being stopped it isn't funny. He reeled into the turnbuckle after rising from a very heavy KD. By contrast Page was never even remotely in that sort of trouble, tho a teeny bit less dominating than Holmes had been excepting the near stoppage. Kudo's to Larry's enormous heart and ability to hammer under duress.

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Concerning Dokes, speed can certainly diminish over the course of a match, just as punching power can, so it shouldn't be surprising that Dokes was no exception.
The point they made was that Dokes lost his speed far earlier and more substancially than others.

Great posts too by the way, been reading some of your work around the joint and it's thrilling to see someone who knows my (Sal's and many others) era so damn well, the nostalgic facts and points are a treat!
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Old 06-30-2007, 08:23 PM   #59
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Default Re: Name some fighters who had great potential but wasted it away..

jose luis lopez.
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Old 07-01-2007, 05:19 AM   #60
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Default Re: Name some fighters who had great potential but wasted it away..

Agreed, was a tragedy that he never fulfilled his staggering promise. one of the most athletic boxers i have ever seen.

as an englishman growing up watching numerous homegrown failures (particularly on the football pitch, but also in other sports) Naz was a refreshing change.

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Originally Posted by stake501
Naseem Hamed if he had stayed with Ingle and not listened to his brothers.

He could have been a p4p atg
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