Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-16-2010, 10:12 AM   #16
red cobra
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Sea of Tranquility
Posts: 13,175
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Supposing Leon Spinks had defended his title against Ken Norton...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
an utterly shot Jerry Quarry, who couldn't get out of his own way, let alone Ken's punches?
Quarry WAS shot when he fought Norton..there was a moment, a fleeting moment in that fight when Quarry poured it on Norton who was against the ropes and covering up..all that from a shot Quarry...a fat, slow, pathetic Quarry..I can't help but believe that it would have been a different story vs the Quarry of the Spencer fight or the Mathis or even the Lyle fight...
red cobra is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 06-16-2010, 10:17 AM   #17
Briscoe
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 471
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Supposing Leon Spinks had defended his title against Ken Norton...

Haha, forgot to answer the thread question.

Ken would thrash Leon. He (Norton) had the style to take down men like Ali and Holmes (potentially), but not too much against guys like Shavers. I'm not saying that this theory holds true like a mathematical formula, but there's a decent amount of evidence to back that idea up.
Briscoe is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2010, 10:20 AM   #18
TG1
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,982
vCash: 500
Default Re: Supposing Leon Spinks had defended his title against Ken Norton...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
No, I don't believe there ever was a significant such interval for Norton. Now that a number of reviewers have had an opportunity to evaluate Ali-Norton III on youtube for themselves (instead of basing their suppositions on biased second hand information favorable to Norton), a goodly number of them (in fact a startling number, considering the post fight press assessments claiming Ken deserved the verdict) have concluded that the scoring was fair and accurate. In any event, Ken was certainly not dominant, and this against a post Manila Ali who had just had his injured legs drained after the foolhardy Inoki farce.

Leon's timing was perfect, in that he got Ali not after Manila, Inoki or Norton, but after Shavers, a match I suspect inflicted far more neurological damage on Muhammad than has commonly been supposed. Ali's timing and coordination never looked quite right after going 15 rounds with Earnie, even in winning the rematch with Leon.

As I see it, Ken's only opportunity to win the lineal title in the ring was after Leon upset Ali. Norton could never have become more than a transitional champion though. His susceptibility to sluggers like Shavers, Cooney, Foreman, Lyle, Knoetze, Coetzee and Mercado, would have been too pronounced, and Holmes boxed his ears off over the first ten rounds of their classic. (John Tate might well have forced him back and physically smothered Ken, as he did Weaver for 13 of 15 rounds. Big John would also have been far more wary of Norton's power, as he was with that of Knoetze and Coetzee. Tate was caught by surprise against Weaver and Berbick. Ken would have never enjoyed such a stealthy advantage.)

Can Norton truly be considered a legitimate hall of famer? Even if so, is an early IBHOF induction date of 1992 a fair reflection of his "greatness?" What's his best decisive win? A slow starting Bobick whose vulnerability to the right had already been exposed by Stevenson in Munich? An utterly shot Jerry Quarry, who couldn't get out of his own way, let alone Ken's punches? Zanon? The Garcia rematch? Lovell? The one punch knockout of Stephens? Are any of these stoppages genuinely better than Leon's knockouts of Evangelista (then on a decent winning streak with some quality experience behind him) or Mercado? (Bernardo Mercado had starched Berbick in one, repeating a 1975 amateur win over Trevor, decisioned Henry Clark, climbed off the deck to outlast Shavers, and had just stopped Prater in 12, seemingly putting to rest earlier questions about his stamina.) I think a real case can be made that between Leon and Ken, Leon's ninth round TKO of Mercado is the best heavyweight stoppage win either produced in their respective careers.

Of course Norton would have beaten Leon if they squared off in the summer of 1978. I don't recall anybody anywhere suggesting otherwise. But neither do I recall any suggestion that Leon was actually the best heavyweight in the world.
Awesome knowledge on your behalf but Evangelista was piss poor, experience or not!
TG1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2010, 10:31 AM   #19
Duodenum
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Supposing Leon Spinks had defended his title against Ken Norton...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TG1 View Post
Evangelista was piss poor, experience or not!
Agreed, but he did have Leon in some brief early trouble. The main reason I mentioned that one though, is because the combination Leon knocked him out with may have been the most impressive singular moment of his career. (I'd be curious to see Evangelista-Snipes. How the hell did that happen?)
Duodenum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2010, 10:38 AM   #20
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,574
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Supposing Leon Spinks had defended his title against Ken Norton...

Alfredo Evangelista is a fighter that I've seen almost no footage of.. His record doesn't leave much to be desired, but he did step in the ring with a fair number of big named opponents, and for whatever its worth, held various Euro titles over the years....

Can someone tell me a bit more about him? What type of fighter was he? Did he have any entertaining showings that would be worth seeing?
mr. magoo is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2010, 10:43 AM   #21
Duodenum
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Supposing Leon Spinks had defended his title against Ken Norton...

Quote:
Originally Posted by red cobra View Post
Quarry WAS shot when he fought Norton..there was a moment, a fleeting moment in that fight when Quarry poured it on Norton who was against the ropes and covering up..all that from a shot Quarry...a fat, slow, pathetic Quarry..I can't help but believe that it would have been a different story vs the Quarry of the Spencer fight or the Mathis or even the Lyle fight...
I'm guessing that you're referring to Jerry's desperation assault in round three, after he got cut. Even near the end, just as referee LoBianco steps in between them to stop it for the first time, he moves forward just as a short Quarry right buckles and sags Ken, then retreats to allow a resumption of action.

The elusive and cagey Jerry of the Spencer masterpiece may indeed have been a very different story for Norton.
Duodenum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2010, 10:52 AM   #22
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 21,906
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Supposing Leon Spinks had defended his title against Ken Norton...

Quote:
Originally Posted by he grant View Post
The only person more scared of a Spinks/Norton fight than Butch Lewis was Muhammad Ali ... both knew Norton would blow Spinks out in a round or so and that Ali would have to fight Norton for the title if he had hopes of getting it back ... the way Norton was ducked was a crime ...
I agree Norton would have beaten Spinks, but don't condemn Ali at nearly 38 for not facing Norton again.Spinks ducked Norton,Ali fought him 3 times.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2010, 10:54 AM   #23
TG1
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,982
vCash: 500
Default Re: Supposing Leon Spinks had defended his title against Ken Norton...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
Alfredo Evangelista is a fighter that I've seen almost no footage of.. His record doesn't leave much to be desired, but he did step in the ring with a fair number of big named opponents, and for whatever its worth, held various Euro titles over the years....

Can someone tell me a bit more about him? What type of fighter was he? Did he have any entertaining showings that would be worth seeing?
He was a slow, plodding, come forward fighter - hands high with mediocre power and no head movement.

He went 15 with Ali which said more about what Ali had left than what Evangelista had. Holmes made mince meat of him easily - that is worth seeing but the Ali fight is attrocious!
TG1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2010, 11:04 AM   #24
red cobra
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Sea of Tranquility
Posts: 13,175
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Supposing Leon Spinks had defended his title against Ken Norton...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
I'm guessing that you're referring to Jerry's desperation assault in round three, after he got cut. Even near the end, just as referee LoBianco steps in between them to stop it for the first time, he moves forward just as a short Quarry right buckles and sags Ken, then retreats to allow a resumption of action.

The elusive and cagey Jerry of the Spencer masterpiece may indeed have been a very different story for Norton.
Yes Mr. D, that's the moment I was referring to...you could see that Quarry's fighting heart was unfortunately trapped inside a thick, chunky, slow, soon to be old man's body...I mean Norton owned him that night and gave him a real pasting, but the Quarry of the late 60's...just prior to meeting Frazier (and fighting the wrong fight, IMO)..before he physically matured and thickened out physique-wise was a totally different fighter. The version of him in that OTHER masterpiece..the one that, to my knowledge dosen't exist on film, vs Mathis was Quarry at his best. Mathis had just cruelly battered and owned George Chuvalo, only to turn around to be just as cruelly battered and owned by Quarry. Jerry was faster, smarter and hit harder, I believe...and he was more into that vindictive counter punching style of his. This version of JQ I believe could very well have beaten Norton.
red cobra is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2010, 11:10 AM   #25
TG1
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,982
vCash: 500
Default Re: Supposing Leon Spinks had defended his title against Ken Norton...

Quote:
Originally Posted by red cobra View Post
Yes Mr. D, that's the moment I was referring to...you could see that Quarry's fighting heart was unfortunately trapped inside a thick, chunky, slow, soon to be old man's body...I mean Norton owned him that night and gave him a real pasting, but the Quarry of the late 60's...just prior to meeting Frazier (and fighting the wrong fight, IMO)..before he physically matured and thickened out physique-wise was a totally different fighter. The version of him in that OTHER masterpiece..the one that, to my knowledge dosen't exist on film, vs Mathis was Quarry at his best. Mathis had just cruelly battered and owned George Chuvalo, only to turn around to be just as cruelly battered and owned by Quarry. Jerry was faster, smarter and hit harder, I believe...and he was more into that vindictive counter punching style of his. This version of JQ I believe could very well have beaten Norton.
I rate Quarry until around the time of the Ali rematch. With the exception of upsetting Lyle his performances after that went downhill.

IMO Norton is a better fighter than Quarry and would have beaten the late 60's version. The 75 version was a punch bag with heart.
TG1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2010, 11:15 AM   #26
Duodenum
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Supposing Leon Spinks had defended his title against Ken Norton...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
Alfredo Evangelista is a fighter that I've seen almost no footage of.. His record doesn't leave much to be desired, but he did step in the ring with a fair number of big named opponents, and for whatever its worth, held various Euro titles over the years....

Can someone tell me a bit more about him? What type of fighter was he? Did he have any entertaining showings that would be worth seeing?
He was an unusually dull and colorless fighter, even when blasting out Coopman (which was shown as part of the Holmes-Evangelista prefight coverage). He was basically a slowish, and somewhat cautious come forward brawler with decent power, good stamina and an adequate chin. Zanon's speed and skills were too much for him. Eventually, Lucien Rodriguez also figured him out. It's strange that Evangelista was never able to exploit Zanon's weak chin while stopping Rodriguez twice. From what I saw of Rodriguez against Holmes, he had no business ever getting stopped by Evangelista. (Of course Lucien only got his shot at Larry shortly after avenging those two earlier losses, and he was considerably improved during his second EBU reign.)

Urtain, Rodriguez and Lubbers were startling early career knockouts for him, but there's no way he deserved a shot at Ali, especially after dropping his first decision to Zanon. (Evangelista was the most controversial challenger who ever got a shot at Muhammad's title, even more than Leon, who was at least undefeated. Alfredo didn't suffer the same withering criticisms before Holmes, because he was now the reigning EBU titleholder, and had won over the championship distance.)

In the US, the only matches of Evangelista's that I've seen are the Coopman starching, Ali, Holmes and Leon. Of these, his fight with Leon was the most entertaining.
Duodenum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2010, 11:21 AM   #27
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,574
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Supposing Leon Spinks had defended his title against Ken Norton...

Thanks guys for the low down on Evangelista... Apparently there was a circuit of European fighters during the late 70's and early 80's, which involved Evangelista, Zanon and Rodriguez, all of whom fought each other multiple times and all of whom got world title shots.. I really don't know anything about any of these men, but they don't seem to have left any sort of impression, or at least not on American or British boxing fans. I suppose the appeal of Ali and Holmes fighting challengers from abroad, and ones that held some sort of a regional "title" are what put them on the map, but outside of that, I don't see any other plausible explanation for them being little more than a footnote.
mr. magoo is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2010, 11:43 AM   #28
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,226
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Supposing Leon Spinks had defended his title against Ken Norton...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
No, I don't believe there ever was a significant such interval for Norton. Now that a number of reviewers have had an opportunity to evaluate Ali-Norton III on youtube for themselves (instead of basing their suppositions on biased second hand information favorable to Norton), a goodly number of them (in fact a startling number, considering the post fight press assessments claiming Ken deserved the verdict) have concluded that the scoring was fair and accurate. In any event, Ken was certainly not dominant, and this against a post Manila Ali who had just had his injured legs drained after the foolhardy Inoki farce.

Leon's timing was perfect, in that he got Ali not after Manila, Inoki or Norton, but after Shavers, a match I suspect inflicted far more neurological damage on Muhammad than has commonly been supposed. Ali's timing and coordination never looked quite right after going 15 rounds with Earnie, even in winning the rematch with Leon.

As I see it, Ken's only opportunity to win the lineal title in the ring was after Leon upset Ali. Norton could never have become more than a transitional champion though. His susceptibility to sluggers like Shavers, Cooney, Foreman, Lyle, Knoetze, Coetzee and Mercado, would have been too pronounced, and Holmes boxed his ears off over the first ten rounds of their classic. (John Tate might well have forced him back and physically smothered Ken, as he did Weaver for 13 of 15 rounds. Big John would also have been far more wary of Norton's power, as he was with that of Knoetze and Coetzee. Tate was caught by surprise against Weaver and Berbick. Ken would have never enjoyed such a stealthy advantage.)

Can Norton truly be considered a legitimate hall of famer? Even if so, is an early IBHOF induction date of 1992 a fair reflection of his "greatness?" What's his best decisive win? A slow starting Bobick whose vulnerability to the right had already been exposed by Stevenson in Munich? An utterly shot Jerry Quarry, who couldn't get out of his own way, let alone Ken's punches? Zanon? The Garcia rematch? Lovell? The one punch knockout of Stephens? Are any of these stoppages genuinely better than Leon's knockouts of Evangelista (then on a decent winning streak with some quality experience behind him) or Mercado? (Bernardo Mercado had starched Berbick in one, repeating a 1975 amateur win over Trevor, decisioned Henry Clark, climbed off the deck to outlast Shavers, and had just stopped Prater in 12, seemingly putting to rest earlier questions about his stamina.) I think a real case can be made that between Leon and Ken, Leon's ninth round TKO of Mercado is the best heavyweight stoppage win either produced in their respective careers.

Of course Norton would have beaten Leon if they squared off in the summer of 1978. I don't recall anybody anywhere suggesting otherwise. But neither do I recall any suggestion that Leon was actually the best heavyweight in the world.
The way I see it Norton basicaly gets three theoretical shots at the lineal title.

A. The decision of the third Ali fight is rendered in his favour.

B. Ali gives him a rematch in line with his obligations instead of fighting Spinks.

C. Spinks defends his title agianst him in line with his obligations.

Between those three lines of oportunity I do have to ask if he was unfairly denied the title. Most champions are only transitional champions at the end of the day.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2010, 11:45 AM   #29
Duodenum
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Supposing Leon Spinks had defended his title against Ken Norton...

Quote:
Originally Posted by red cobra View Post
Yes Mr. D, that's the moment I was referring to...you could see that Quarry's fighting heart was unfortunately trapped inside a thick, chunky, slow, soon to be old man's body...I mean Norton owned him that night and gave him a real pasting, but the Quarry of the late 60's...just prior to meeting Frazier (and fighting the wrong fight, IMO)..before he physically matured and thickened out physique-wise was a totally different fighter. The version of him in that OTHER masterpiece..the one that, to my knowledge doesn't exist on film, vs Mathis was Quarry at his best. Mathis had just cruelly battered and owned George Chuvalo, only to turn around to be just as cruelly battered and owned by Quarry. Jerry was faster, smarter and hit harder, I believe...and he was more into that vindictive counter punching style of his. This version of JQ I believe could very well have beaten Norton.
As you already know this, I'll simply reiterate for the edification of our younger and newer posters:

For context, it seems all we have to go on is the Mathis-Chuvalo footage for assessing the magnitude of Jerry's win over Buster. Mathis is commonly derided as a fat slob, but some footage of his finer wins have surfaced on youtube, and he was an extremely serious entity at his best. He came in ten pounds lighter for Jerry than he was for Frazier (over 22 pounds lighter than he'd later be for Ali), and had just pitched a near shutout over Chuvalo. In turn, Jerry shut out Buster over 12, according to the AP, and nearly so according to the official scores (which would have been even more lopsided had the ten point must system been in effect, due to Jerry's second round knockdown).

Buster had knockout power in both hands, excellent speed and mobility when in decent shape, and was capable of starting fast and taking out an opponent quickly. (He dropped Wepner in the opening round, and Chuck never recovered. Yes, he cut easily, but he did have a good chin.) Chuvalo was easily the most impressive performance of his career. There had been questions about Buster's ability to make war over the distance. Amos Lincoln and the clever Bob Stallings had taken Mathis to ten round SDs, sandwiched around the Frazier collapse. But Chuvalo seemingly signaled a change in his ability to combat strongly over the long haul. What Jerry did to Buster, just over a year after Spencer, must have been awesome and stunning to witness.
Duodenum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2010, 11:58 AM   #30
Dempsey1238
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,015
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Supposing Leon Spinks had defended his title against Ken Norton...

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
When we talk about uncrowned heavyweight champions names like Peter Jackson, Sam Langford and Harry Wills come up but never Ken Norton.

I wonder if there was a significant period where Norton was better than the title holders and idealy equiped to beat them.

What parts Norton from the others, is Norton had a shot at the crown, 2 times, were the others were keep in the cold.
Dempsey1238 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013