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Old 07-15-2010, 11:55 AM   #1
bman100
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Default Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Sure its been done a million times before, the two gretest fighters in boxing history, sugar at 160, closest to his prime in his 1950 form, Greb at his middleweight prime between 158 to 165, who would win and what would be the strategy to win?, Now its hard to determine of course seeing as theres naught footage of Greb but using the imagination, who would win? Honestly is was hard to decide for myself cuz i like em both to not have an opinion which is not biased, thought to see what others here think...

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Old 07-15-2010, 12:34 PM   #2
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Ray Robby of 1951 to 1953 was already as old as when Harold Greb kicked-off in 1926, and H.G. was a mere shell when he lost to Toger Flowers that year of '26..... But, aside from that hoopla, Ray Robby was still sound like a whistle in the early 50s as a middleweight.....

All in all, Robby beats the piss outta Greb in a technical sense of a blood-bath..... Greb tries like hell to swarm and get close to Robby, but he is often missing with his shots and is getting painted in return... Robby gets the 13 round TKO when Greb needs a blood transfusion.......

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Old 07-15-2010, 01:10 PM   #3
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Greb would kick the shit out of Robinson. He was far better and more dynamic in pretty much every sense of the word than LaMotta who ray struggled mightily with. Against Greb Ray wouldnt have his speed advantage either. He hit hard but did he hit as hard as heavyweights that Greb fought? What could the naturally smaller Robinson do that Greb had never seen? You name it Greb faced it and beat it. Greb wins a 15 round decision proving conclusively that Robinson is not the greatest p4p.
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:10 PM   #4
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Greb gets the decision here. He was clearly fading when he handled Walker decisively. (Damon Runyon reported it as being close, but Mickey himself never disputed the verdict, which suggests that other reports of a more conclusive win may have been more accurate.) Likewise in this situation, he'd be going for a distance win all the way. Prime for prime, Greb versus SRR would be much closer than Greb and Walker was, but I don't see Robby's power as being sufficient to deter Harry, and there's no question who would be physically stronger in close. It took Tunney five tries to produce a dominant performance over a fading Greb, and Harry was a major pain at his peak for anybody who hadn't faced him before.

Robby dominated a faded Armstrong, but Hank was a natural featherweight. The Windmill was a much bigger and stronger swarmer. (Anybody who visits Canastota should check out the cast of Armstrong's tiny fist. Walker's hand nearly disappears inside Greb's when they shake after their contract signing.)

Speed was a key factor when Greb outscored Walker. SRR typically could count on having this advantage when facing bigger opponents, but observers who witnessed both in action haven't said Ray would have a clear advantage over Harry in speed.

If Harry comes in at peak condition under the middleweight limit, and with a referee who lets them fight, then Robby may find himself in the same situation Mike Gibbons did in June 1919, too busy defending himself to land enough punches for the win.
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:14 PM   #5
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by klompton View Post
Greb would kick the shit out of Robinson. He was far better and more dynamic in pretty much every sense of the word than LaMotta who ray struggled mightily with.
If by "struggled" you mean "dominate over the course of a six-fight series while being outweighed by the best part of a stone, and dishing out a humiliatingly one-sided slaughtering and brutal knockout to him in the most meaningful fight between the two", yes.

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Originally Posted by klompton View Post
Against Greb Ray wouldnt have his speed advantage either. He hit hard but did he hit as hard as heavyweights that Greb fought? What could the naturally smaller Robinson do that Greb had never seen?
And I suppose you've seen plenty of conclusive footage of Greb to support all this radical stuff?
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:16 PM   #6
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Hilariously, a lot of the people picking Greb here would probably pick Monzon over Greb, despite the fact that Robinson can employ Monzon's style better than Monzon.
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:17 PM   #7
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

I don't know who would win...but I would pay big bucks to watch it. Who has the time machine?
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by itrymariti View Post
Hilariously, a lot of the people picking Greb here would probably pick Monzon over Greb, despite the fact that Robinson can employ Monzon's style better than Monzon.
Patience was a large element of Monzon's approach, and that would be fatal with Greb. Yes, Robby could employ that style better, but Carlos, who started out as a full fledged middleweight, was naturally bigger and stronger than Ray, who had to put on over 30 pounds between his amateur featherweight titles in 1939, and his ascension to middleweight glory.
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:59 PM   #9
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

I'd pick Robinson to beat Greb, for what little it is worth.
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Old 07-15-2010, 02:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by klompton View Post
Greb would kick the shit out of Robinson. He was far better and more dynamic in pretty much every sense of the word than LaMotta who ray struggled mightily with. Against Greb Ray wouldnt have his speed advantage either. He hit hard but did he hit as hard as heavyweights that Greb fought? What could the naturally smaller Robinson do that Greb had never seen? You name it Greb faced it and beat it. Greb wins a 15 round decision proving conclusively that Robinson is not the greatest p4p.
Your analysis couldn't be improved upon...At their peaks Ray Robinson
never had to cope with the blistering speed Greb posessed,foot and hand.
This would take away much of Robinson's domination of his opponents.
Robinson though winning had problems with the quick styles of Bernard Docusen and Kid Gavilan, who were no Harry Greb's.Furthermore Robby had his handful with crowders such as Marty Servo, Sammy Angott ,
and Ralph Tiger Jones...In Greb he would meet a tough unorhodox
nightmare of a fighter who fought every weight class,every style ,
in your face fighter who overwhelmed great fighters,ala Tunney, Gibbons.
Loughran, Jack Dillon, Walker, Rosenbloom etc. Big men that Ray wisely
wouldn't have tackled..Robinson would know his limitations,while Harry
Greb avoided no one...Styles make fights and Greb certainly had the
perfect style and stamina to beat Ray Robinson,!MO...
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Old 07-15-2010, 02:03 PM   #11
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

I think Robinson's struggle with Gavilan is as much to do with his status as one of the very best - perhaps the second best - welter ever to box as it does his style, which would be difficult for anyone, ever, including Greb.
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Old 07-15-2010, 02:14 PM   #12
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
Greb gets the decision here. He was clearly fading when he handled Walker decisively. (Damon Runyon reported it as being close, but Mickey himself never disputed the verdict, which suggests that other reports of a more conclusive win may have been more accurate.) Likewise in this situation, he'd be going for a distance win all the way. Prime for prime, Greb versus SRR would be much closer than Greb and Walker was, but I don't see Robby's power as being sufficient to deter Harry, and there's no question who would be physically stronger in close. It took Tunney five tries to produce a dominant performance over a fading Greb, and Harry was a major pain at his peak for anybody who hadn't faced him before.

Robby dominated a faded Armstrong, but Hank was a natural featherweight. The Windmill was a much bigger and stronger swarmer. (Anybody who visits Canastota should check out the cast of Armstrong's tiny fist. Walker's hand nearly disappears inside Greb's when they shake after their contract signing.)

Speed was a key factor when Greb outscored Walker. SRR typically could count on having this advantage when facing bigger opponents, but observers who witnessed both in action haven't said Ray would have a clear advantage over Harry in speed.

If Harry comes in at peak condition under the middleweight limit, and with a referee who lets them fight, then Robby may find himself in the same situation Mike Gibbons did in June 1919, too busy defending himself to land enough punches for the win.

Damon Runyon did indeed have the Greb Walker fight as a close win for Greb which I have always found strange. I have a stack of articles written by various newspapermen who ringside from around the country the vast majority of them gave Walker about four rounds out of the 15 with maybe 2 even.

Im curious how someone could say Robinson dominated LaMotta. He won lost won of the six and won two disputed decisions. Even in '51 Robinson was actually getting outjabbed by the shorter, short armed LaMotta. Someone made an issue that LaMotta outweighed Robinson, well, unless Im mistaken the person who started this post stated that Greb could weigh anywhere from 158 to 165. His best weight by his own admission was 162 so if hes allowed to come in at 162 against whatever weight Robinson can muster Id favor Greb without hesitation. Burt mentions Robinson's greatness but limitations by listing names like Angott, Servo, Gavilan, and Docusen. To add to that these guys all weighed between 20 and 30 pounds less than Greb and none have ever been mentioned anywhere near Greb's calibre. So if Greb is a greater fighter, with a greater record, and that much bigger I think its safe to say Robinson is at least in deep deep waters here. After all this is a guy who struggled against Joe Maxim (a middle of the road champion at best) and lost due in large part to the size difference and heat. Greb fought and beat bigger, better guys in an era when air conditioning was rare. He was fast, had a great chin, a varied attack, he was strong as a bull, and if Robinson started firing those kidney punches he loved to throw do you think Greb would simply take them and whince?

And for the record, no I wouldnt pick Monzon over Greb, I think hed have a worse shot than Robinson. But then Ive never been impressed with Monzon. He beats Greb if he is able to have his luggage handler ref the fight like he did against Moyer. Otherwise Greb crawls all over him and turns his patience against him by never letting him rest or get set.
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Old 07-15-2010, 02:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Your analysis couldn't be improved upon...At their peaks Ray Robinson
never had to cope with the blistering speed Greb posessed,foot and hand.
This would take away much of Robinson's domination of his opponents.
Robinson though winning had problems with the quick styles of Bernard Docusen and Kid Gavilan, who were no Harry Greb's.Furthermore Robby had his handful with crowders such as Marty Servo, Sammy Angott ,
and Ralph Tiger Jones...In Greb he would meet a tough unorhodox
nightmare of a fighter who fought every weight class,every style ,
in your face fighter who overwhelmed great fighters,ala Tunney, Gibbons.
Loughran, Jack Dillon, Walker, Rosenbloom etc. Big men that Ray wisely
wouldn't have tackled..Robinson would know his limitations,while Harry
Greb avoided no one...Styles make fights and Greb certainly had the
perfect style and stamina to beat Ray Robinson,!MO...
Why should Robinson be any more vulnerable to pressure than anyone else? He has a proven ability to fight off the back foot, control the distance and pace and is basically impossible to beat in an exchange. Greb would only be walking into his power.
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Old 07-15-2010, 02:19 PM   #14
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
I think Robinson's struggle with Gavilan is as much to do with his status as one of the very best - perhaps the second best - weter ever to box as it does his style, which would be difficult for anyone, ever, including Greb.
Harry Greb beat larger fighters than Kid Gavilan ever would dream of tackling. If He had to Harry Greb had the physical strength to cope and
manhandle heavyweights if necessary...Along with tremendous speed with his volleys and foot speed which was described as "rubberlike",in his ability
to bounce away from danger when required...He was held in "AWE",by his
peers, in a golden age of fighters who would fight almost every two weeks
to earn a living,and he was the best P4P fighter of his times....
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Old 07-15-2010, 02:24 PM   #15
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by itrymariti View Post
Why should Robinson be any more vulnerable to pressure than anyone else? He has a proven ability to fight off the back foot, control the distance and pace and is basically impossible to beat in an exchange. Greb would only be walking into his power.

What makes you think his power would make Greb flinch and that Greb forcing him to fight off the back foot would effect Greb negatively? Robinson struggled his ass off in two fights against Turpin whose best asset was his physical strength. You think Greb couldnt bring that same strength or more to bear? People question his ability to deal with pressure because he showed throughout his career that if you had a great chin, strength, and a pressure style you could have success with Robinson. Greb did these things as well or better than anyone Robinson ever faced.
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