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Old 07-15-2010, 04:10 PM   #31
dpw417
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Greb struggled with Bogash. Kid Gavilan is better than Bogash for my money, and he is much taller.

Additionally, I was talking about the style rather than the man - but I have absolutley no doubt that Gavilan could do as well with Greb, if not better, than Bogash did.

Greb is a top 4 pound for pound lock IMO, I rank him #2 in the forever, but this "he beat heavyweights so he could beat.." shit has to stop.


Robinson would be the best composite puncher that Greb had ever fought. Robinson is in deep water? Hell yes. Greb is in deep water? Anyone who doesn't believe that is deluded. I don't see any reason, at all, why a pick for Robinson over Greb is anything other than good business. The reverse? Also true.
This is the lone voice of OBJECTIVE reasoning in this thread...ie. not having an agenda to push...Cheers McGrain, much appreciated.
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:14 PM   #32
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Robinson said he was willing to fight heavyweights while still a middleweight. In taht regard he was smiliar to Greb he didnt do it though, bet he went on record saying he was willing to fight heavyweights while still 152lbs.
bman,I was around those days, and it was common knowledge that Ray
Robinson,the biggest draw in boxing those days,could have fought ANY
fighter he chose...But wiusely clkever Ray chose not to fight the likes of Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles,Harold Johnson,Jimmy Bivins, Lloyd Marshall,
and other 175 pounders...Ray Robinson, great as he was, knew his limitations...How on ewarth can you say that " he was similar to Greb,
though he DIDN'T DO IT "?.Action speaks louder than words, wouldn't\you think ? Greb because of his unique style, stamina and strength,combined with an uncanny ability to bombard an opponent's face, made him able to
acquire his remarkable record...He in short was unique...
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:14 PM   #33
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

The ducking cunt.
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:17 PM   #34
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by dpw417 View Post
This is the lone voice of OBJECTIVE reasoning in this thread...ie. not having an agenda to push...Cheers McGrain, much appreciated.
Always a pleasure where you're concerned DP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
bman,I was around those days, and it was common knowledge that Ray
Robinson,the biggest draw in boxing those days,could have fought ANY
fighter he chose...But wiusely clkever Ray chose not to fight the likes of Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles,Harold Johnson,Jimmy Bivins, Lloyd Marshall,
and other 175 pounders...Ray Robinson, great as he was, knew his limitations...How on ewarth can you say that " he was similar to Greb,
though he DIDN'T DO IT "?.Action speaks louder than words, wouldn't\you think ? Greb because of his unique style, stamina and strength,combined with an uncanny ability to bombard an opponent's face, made him able to
acquire his remarkable record...He in short was unique...
Greb fought at MW, LHW and HW.

Robinson fought at LW, WW and MW and had a punt at LHW.
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:19 PM   #35
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by bman100 View Post
Robinson said he was willing to fight heavyweights while still a middleweight. In that regard he was similar to Greb he didn't do it though, bet he went on record saying he was willing to fight heavyweights while still 152lbs.
When Robby reviewed the Valentine's Day Massacre for Curt Gowdy's "The Way it Was" program on PBS with LaMotta during the late 1970s, Gowdy asked Ray near the conclusion if he would have gone after the heavyweight title after beating Maxim. SRR laughingly denied that he considered this idea. At that particular moment in 1952, the aging, but extremely dangerous and cagey Walcott had just defended it against Charles in unimpressive fashion. A quarter century later though, Ray may have been thinking about Marciano when he answered Gowdy's question, but I wouldn't blame him for not wanting to tackle Charles or Walcott at that stage. He wisely wanted no part of Moore either.
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:28 PM   #36
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

I agree with McGrain here. Certain types of fighter are simply better suited to tackling larger opponents, while it's also possible that those same fighters might not be as well suited to taking on the top technicians around their own weight. Styles make matchups. Take a look at a guy like Pacquiao for a modern day example. Do you think Marqueza would've been beating Cotto at Welterweight? I sure don't. Does it matter in a fight with Pacquiao at a lower weight? Obviously not. That kind of logic doesn't work.
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:29 PM   #37
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
bman,I was around those days, and it was common knowledge that Ray
Robinson,the biggest draw in boxing those days,could have fought ANY
fighter he chose...But wiusely clkever Ray chose not to fight the likes of Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles,Harold Johnson,Jimmy Bivins, Lloyd Marshall,
and other 175 pounders...Ray Robinson, great as he was, knew his limitations...How on ewarth can you say that " he was similar to Greb,
though he DIDN'T DO IT "?.Action speaks louder than words, wouldn't\you think ? Greb because of his unique style, stamina and strength,combined with an uncanny ability to bombard an opponent's face, made him able to
acquire his remarkable record...He in short was unique...

I meant he was similar in saying that he was willing to fight as a hevyweight in this way they are similar, the difference is Greb actually did it, a HUGE difference sure, actions speak louder than words, I was merely pointing out that Robinson was not afraid to move up in weight class as it was pointed out here that he fought in more than just two weight classes.

He did go bigger when he had no options left in the division. At welter he defended it a meagre 4 times. At middle he beat everyone so tried for light hevyweight, failed due to heat then retired. when he came back the after three years the middleweight had lots of new people, fresh faces, three years is a long time, not to mention he couldnt go through everyone so easily as he was getitng older. Are you saying that he wouldnt have gone up in weight class if he had he incentive to?...money and competition, he had that plenty at middle when he came back after a layoff so there was no need to move up. Yet he was willing to fight higher weight classes., he was in negotiations to fight Moore if im right, Moore backed out, so they were similar in this regard. Yes, he knew his limits but he didnt hesitate to move up and fight everyone. they are alike.
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:31 PM   #38
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

I imagine Gavilan would be very competitive against Greb. He's sticking around for the 15, there's no doubt he'd have as much to baffle Greb as the Windmill would have to baffle him. Greb would clearly win in a great fight, if Greb is what I imagine him to be.

I think Greb vs Robinson is another great fight. I'd envision Greb sneaking a decision, his unorthodox style seeing him ship a few less punches and land a few more flurries. Close as Hell rounds, 9-6 Greb.
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:32 PM   #39
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by El Bujia View Post
I agree with McGrain here. Certain types of fighter are simply better suited to tackling larger opponents, while it's also possible that those same fighters might not be as well suited to taking on the top technicians around their own weight. Styles make matchups. Take a look at a guy like Pacquiao for a modern day example. Do you think Marqueza would've been beating Cotto at Welterweight? I sure don't. Does it matter in a fight with Pacquiao at a lower weight? Obviously not. That kind of logic doesn't work.
I also agree with this.
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:32 PM   #40
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
When Robby reviewed the Valentine's Day Massacre for Curt Gowdy's "The Way it Was" program on PBS with LaMotta during the late 1970s, Gowdy asked Ray near the conclusion if he would have gone after the heavyweight title after beating Maxim. SRR laughingly denied that he considered this idea. At that particular moment in 1952, the aging, but extremely dangerous and cagey Walcott had just defended it against Charles in unimpressive fashion. A quarter century later though, Ray may have been thinking about Marciano when he answered Gowdy's question, but I wouldn't blame him for not wanting to tackle Charles or Walcott at that stage. He wisely wanted no part of Moore either.

Strange, i have an interview in a magazine in which he says "Il go up to heavyweight, with me its just a business."dunno why he denied it when he clearly said it. although the interview i have is around 1950, a young fighter with options and the compettion was not as terrible as Marciano as youve said. maybe later he changed his mind and couldnt remember even saying it.
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:42 PM   #41
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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This is the lone voice of OBJECTIVE reasoning in this thread...ie. not having an agenda to push...Cheers McGrain, much appreciated.
You imply I have an agenda to push...So please correct me..If I think that Harry Greb would have beaten Ray Robinson and had a more accomplished resume,that means I and others who share my opinion have an AGENDA. And conversely the posters who just as vigorously claim Ray
Robinson a better fighter are not painted with the same AGENDA label !
Doesn't make sense or fairness to me..
Please tell me with respect, what agenda are we pushing.? Please dont imply that I have a hidden motive in preferring Greb over Robinson..
His record speaks for itself as I and numerous posters sincerely believe...
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:13 PM   #42
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
You imply I have an agenda to push...So please correct me..If I think that Harry Greb would have beaten Ray Robinson and had a more accomplished resume,that means I and others who share my opinion have an AGENDA. And conversely the posters who just as vigorously claim Ray
Robinson a better fighter are not painted with the same AGENDA label !
Doesn't make sense or fairness to me..
Please tell me with respect, what agenda are we pushing.? Please dont imply that I have a hidden motive in preferring Greb over Robinson..
His record speaks for itself as I and numerous posters sincerely believe...
I do not wish to demean the record of the best fighter I ever saw Ray Robinson.I regard Ray, and Greb,and Langford along with old Fitz,as the best P4P fighters for their skills and ability to beat larger men..Robinson
for his all around skills and Greb, Langford and Fitz for giving away weight
and prevailing....Right or wrong that is my "agenda"...
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:17 PM   #43
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Strange, i have an interview in a magazine in which he says "I'll go up to heavyweight, with me it's just a business." dunno why he denied it when he clearly said it. although the interview i have is around 1950, a young fighter with options and the competition was not as terrible as Marciano as you've said. maybe later he changed his mind and couldn't remember even saying it.
That's entirely possible. Certainly it's easier to say some things than it is to take action on them. Then, there's the entire issue of being quoted in print. I wanted to bring up what I did because this is something Robinson said on camera in response to a direct question about it. That doesn't mean he didn't say something different around 1950, but the diffident way he chuckled when asked does convey the sense that he considered the idea ludicrous, so much so that it's difficult to imagine he ever felt otherwise.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:28 PM   #44
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
That's entirely possible. Certainly it's easier to say some things than it is to take action on them. Then, there's the entire issue of being quoted in print. I wanted to bring up what I did because this is something Robinson said on camera in response to a direct question about it. That doesn't mean he didn't say something different around 1950, but the diffident way he chuckled when asked does convey the sense that he considered the idea ludicrous, so much so that it's difficult to imagine he ever felt otherwise.

indeed, he had a lot of different ideas that kept changing, another exaple is when he said he never enjoyed boxing, he did it for money, later however he said he really loved, beleving he was blessed, he changed his mind, dunno why though. He made both statements to the public, so it wasnt about image.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:30 PM   #45
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by MRBILL View Post
Ray Robby of 1951 to 1953 was already as old as when Harold Greb kicked-off in 1926, and H.G. was a mere shell when he lost to Toger Flowers that year of '26..... But, aside from that hoopla, Ray Robby was still sound like a whistle in the early 50s as a middleweight.....

All in all, Robby beats the piss outta Greb in a technical sense of a blood-bath..... Greb tries like hell to swarm and get close to Robby, but he is often missing with his shots and is getting painted in return... Robby gets the 13 round TKO when Greb needs a blood transfusion.......

MR.BILL
No way! It's foolish to think Greb gets ko'd in any way. I think Greb wins by decision in a good fight. But NOONE beats the piss out of Greb, never happened then, it wouldn't now. Greb was super fast and if you read the old newspaper articles, they said he got faster as the fight went. You might as well have said klistchko kos Ali/
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