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Old 07-16-2010, 12:17 PM   #76
klompton
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Am I wrong in saying that a great deal of film was consumed film was grabbed in support of the war effort? Something to do with parachutes if memory serves.

It was the silver content, they melted the films down for the silver.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:20 PM   #77
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
This is one of boxing's great mysteries. Greb-Tunney I and Greb-Walker were definitely filmed. There have been rumors for years that Greb-Walker is indeed in private hands. Tunney-Carpentier was filmed, and it seems highly improbable that Greb-Tunney IV in Cleveland wasn't filmed less than two months later. But there are not even accounts of these films being viewed in movie theaters. Nobody alive today saw Greb compete in the flesh, but one might expect somebody still around to have seen footage of Harry back in the 1930s and 1940s. Nothing.

Beyond that, Greb's hometown was also the home of pioneering radio station KDKA, which broadcast Greb-Tunney I from MSG II (an arena which the colorful Mickey Walker referred to as "the old, smelly one"), and presumably a number of Harry's other fights, especially from Motor Square Garden in Pittsburgh. But Bill Cayton had a number of fight broadcast recordings, and nothing of Greb's. The post Johnson-Jeffries ban on the interstate transport of boxing films did not extend to audio recordings. KDKA's 1920 announcement of Harding's election as President exists in pristine form, so one might expect recordings of Harry's bouts and even interviews to have been conducted with the man himself. If not, that's an incredible opportunity which was lost.

The earliest radio broadcast of a boxing match that exists is Dempsey-Tunney 1927 recorded a year after Greb's death by placing a microphone up to radio reciever and recording it directly to disks.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:25 PM   #78
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by klompton View Post
Bogash was a hell of a fighter that you, through your obvious ignorance of him, are selling short.
I don't know more about Bogash than you do - but i've opened at least one thread about him on the board and done such reading as is available to me - if this leaves me with an opinion of Bogash that is contrary to yours, that's something worth addressing, but if my ignorance of Bogash should happer my discussing him, then he should never be discussed on the board, because it's arguable that only two posters up until this point have demonstrated as keen an interest in him as me after 2007.

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Bogash was strong as hell, durable, and had a wealth of experience. He gave Greb a good fight but Greb clearly won as evidenced by the opinions of everyone but two or three very vocal anti-Greb New York sportswriters who filed their stories for the AP and thus got them wider play than the majority who wrote that Greb won handily.
Yes; i've always been clear that I consider Greb to have won in spite of reports to the contrary. That's my reading of that fight. I remember SLAKKA who is likely another poster with a deeper knowledge of Bogash than I have complimenting upon digging up this point of view on my own when there is evidence to the contrary.

You imply here that the New York papers are flat out in for sabotaging Greb though. If Bogash-Greb was NOT close, these "anti-Greb" sportswriters were not fudging the scoring but rather out to lie about Greb in a fight that was won "handily" by Greb.

This is a serious accusation to levy at The New York Times. Perhaps you can shed a little more light on the matter?

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Bogash drew with the great Jack Britton for the welterweight title
As I've pointed out.

Quote:
drew with Soldier Bartfield, another underrated and excellent spoiler of the era
As i've pointed out.

Quote:
drew with Mike ODowd, drew with Mike McTigue, actually defeated Mickey Walker right before Walker won the WW title, drew with Augie Ratner, defeated Pal Reed, Jackie Clarke, Tommy Loughran, Jack McCarron, Bryan Downey, Jimmy Darcy, Panama Joe Gans, Jock Malone, Frank Moody, Tiger Flowers, Allentown Joe Gans all of whom were championship calibre or just a step below. In nearly 200 fights he was stopped just once. And you wanna argue that because Greb had a rough night against him he was somehow a lesser fighter than Kid Gavilan of all people?
No. I want to argue that KG is my pick for the second best welterweight of whom we have extensive film and I favour him over more welterweights of whom we have extensive film than any other welterweight outside of Robinson. This being the case, I don't much like Bogash's chances, standing, as he is, at 5'5. I also think that his aggressive style is absolutely taylor made for KG's style of boxing.

KG has a serious physical advantage and is brilliant. "Of all people"?

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It isnt out of the question to suggest that Bogash could have beaten Gavilan or even Robinson for that matter yet somehow Greb having a tough fight with him is a stain on his career?
What? No. A stain on his career? A clue to help us understand him.

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A half blind Greb. Not the Greb of 1919 that we are talking about in this mythical matchup. A half blind, thirty year old fighter who has around 200 fights. Thats a hell of an argument McGrain LOL. If thats the best you can do I can safely rest my case HAHAHA
Your case is definitely plainly put, i'll say that.

If you want to go ahead and ignore every fight Greb ever had after developing sight difficulties in evaluating his head to head status as a fighter, you really will struggle to paint an accurate picture.

Last edited by McGrain; 07-16-2010 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:25 PM   #79
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Cmoyle View Post
“You agree he is too heavy handed? I think that was one of the most ridiculous comments i have heard, but maybe i dont take these message boards as personal or serious as some?”

I cannot speak for Lora or Flea Man, but maybe this is the reason for their comments:
Lora’s post was right after a post by Klompton that began as follows: “Bogash was a hell of a fighter that you, through your obvious ignorance of him, are selling short.”

Maybe it’s just me, but I think that sentence would have been just as effective if the words “through your obvious ignorance of him” had been omitted and it instead read “Bogash was a hell of a fighter that you are selling short.”

Not to pick on Klompton, because I see this kind of thing from a number of individuals on all the boxing forums that I look in on from time to time, but I just don’t understand the need to take those kind of shots at one another and can’t help but wonder how many people get turned off and just quit participating in these forums as a result.
Seconded, Mr. Moyle.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:27 PM   #80
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by klompton View Post
The earliest radio broadcast of a boxing match that exists is Dempsey-Tunney 1927 recorded a year after Greb's death by placing a microphone up to radio receiver and recording it directly to disks.
Are we certain that this is the earliest extant broadcast? It seems incredible that Dempsey-Carpentier does not exist anywhere, or Tunney-Dempsey I, or Tunney-Gibbons. (There's a brief shot of the announcer in the Gibbons footage.)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2-QwAbP6Yw[/ame]
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Old 07-16-2010, 02:14 PM   #81
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
Are we certain that this is the earliest extant broadcast? It seems incredible that Dempsey-Carpentier does not exist anywhere, or Tunney-Dempsey I, or Tunney-Gibbons. (There's a brief shot of the announcer in the Gibbons footage.)

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Yes, as it stands right now. Keep in mind that recording of such broadcasts was also in its infancy.
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Old 07-16-2010, 02:19 PM   #82
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Has there ever been a fantasy match-up thread in which burt hasn't favoured the old-timer?
Patently false statement itrymariti---As far as i can recall i have twice
participated in a Fantasy match except for the Harry Greb /Ray Robinson
H2H which I happen to believe Harry Greb with his strength and style
would have prevailed over the equally great Ray Robinson----
And when I chose Jack Dempsey [PRIME ],because of his Arturo Godoy
somewhat style with enourmously more firing power,beating the great Joe Louis...Because of what I envision in my minds eye! My picks have NOTHING in the world to do with old timer nostalgia...For a good reason, I am only eighteen years old...
I also believe Pep would have licked Terry McGovern.
I also believe Ezzard Charles would beat Tommy Loughran.
I also believe fervently that Joe Louis would have beat the Johnson, Jeffries , Corbett, crowd,
I can go on and on...I have no DOG in the race,nor agenda...And in my long lifetime,picking fight winners, I have been more right than wrong...
So I trust my inate instincts, when pondering the abilities of fighters
of the past and present...
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Old 07-16-2010, 02:23 PM   #83
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I don't know more about Bogash than you do - but i've opened at least one thread about him on the board and done such reading as is available to me - if this leaves me with an opinion of Bogash that is contrary to yours, that's something worth addressing, but if my ignorance of Bogash should happer my discussing him, then he should never be discussed on the board, because it's arguable that only two posters up until this point have demonstrated as keen an interest in him as me after 2007.



Yes; i've always been clear that I consider Greb to have won in spite of reports to the contrary. That's my reading of that fight. I remember SLAKKA who is likely another poster with a deeper knowledge of Bogash than I have complimenting upon digging up this point of view on my own when there is evidence to the contrary.

You imply here that the New York papers are flat out in for sabotaging Greb though. If Bogash-Greb was NOT close, these "anti-Greb" sportswriters were not fudging the scoring but rather out to lie about Greb in a fight that was won "handily" by Greb.

This is a serious accusation to levy at The New York Times. Perhaps you can shed a little more light on the matter?



As I've pointed out.



As i've pointed out.



No. I want to argue that KG is my pick for the second best welterweight of whom we have extensive film and I favour him over more welterweights of whom we have extensive film than any other welterweight outside of Robinson. This being the case, I don't much like Bogash's chances, standing, as he is, at 5'5. I also think that his aggressive style is absolutely taylor made for KG's style of boxing.

KG has a serious physical advantage and is brilliant. "Of all people"?



What? No. A stain on his career? A clue to help us understand him.



Your case is definitely plainly put, i'll say that.

If you want to go ahead and ignore every fight Greb ever had after developing sight difficulties in evaluating his head to head status as a fighter, you really will struggle to paint an accurate picture.

Yes, to answer your question there were certain New York newspapermen who were outright hostile towards Greb and as such I consider their reporting suspect at best. There are several reasons for this, some were simply biased towards New York or east coast fighters and Greb was never really a part of that click, secondly some reporters simply didnt like his style, third several reporters approached Greb once and demanded that he pay them money in order for them to right positively about him and his chances against Dempsey. Greb, or rather a Pittsburgh newspaper writer, via information from Greb spilled the beans on that little detail and caused something a storm. Greb quickly changed his tune when he saw that the powerful New York press were all lining up against him, and finally many of those reporters were literally in the pocket of managers and promoters who were hostile to Greb such as Billy Gibson, manager of Gene Tunney. So basically, yes, when Greb fights Bogash in a competetive match and the winner is being offered a shot at Siki by the promoter, and all unbiased ringside reports state that Greb won fair and square, and the promoter goes on trying to match Siki with Greb and not Bogash with Siki, I think its a little odd when 2 New York newspapermen who had been hostile to Greb almost as a knee jerk reaction everytime his name appears in print file unflattering accounts of the fight and hit the AP or UPI newswires with them. I dont know why this should surprise anyone. Sportswriters are still dirty today and still play favorites with certain promoters. You can go down the line of top boxing writers and tell by who they write about most, where they get their information, and who they regularly attack that they are in bed with X, Y, or Z. Hell, Ring magazine, the most famous boxing publication in the world is OWNED by a promoter and was in fact founded by New York sportswriters from that era who in all likelyhood werent above taking a kickback here and there to talk a fighter up or down.
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Old 07-16-2010, 02:35 PM   #84
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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When Robby reviewed the Valentine's Day Massacre for Curt Gowdy's "The Way it Was" program on PBS with LaMotta during the late 1970s, Gowdy asked Ray near the conclusion if he would have gone after the heavyweight title after beating Maxim. SRR laughingly denied that he considered this idea. At that particular moment in 1952, the aging, but extremely dangerous and cagey Walcott had just defended it against Charles in unimpressive fashion. A quarter century later though, Ray may have been thinking about Marciano when he answered Gowdy's question, but I wouldn't blame him for not wanting to tackle Charles or Walcott at that stage. He wisely wanted no part of Moore either.


Ray actually tested the waters vis a vis a fight with Archie, even having him and his Wife over to dinner to discuss it ,but it fell apart because Ray wanted all the money, not for the first time.
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Old 07-16-2010, 02:36 PM   #85
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by klompton View Post
So basically, yes, when Greb fights Bogash in a competetive match and the winner is being offered a shot at Siki by the promoter, and all unbiased ringside reports state that Greb won fair and square, and the promoter goes on trying to match Siki with Greb and not Bogash with Siki, I think its a little odd when 2 New York newspapermen who had been hostile to Greb almost as a knee jerk reaction everytime his name appears in print file unflattering accounts of the fight and hit the AP or UPI newswires with them.


What is the evidence that the two New York writers were biased against Greb? What other supposed one-sided Greb victories did they find against him in, Tunney aside?


So the LA Times ("Greb whipped by Bogash"), Chicago Tribune(Bogash Beats Greb), The Halford Courant ("Bogash shades Greb") are all victims of the NY wire ("Bogash Beats Greb")?

What do you make of the The Boston Daily Globe report which had Greb-Bogash a draw? This is obvioulsy not form the New York Times wire, having the fight a draw rather than a loss. Another biased reporter? Or and honest eye to a close fight?
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:03 PM   #86
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McGrain, first of all,I regard Ray Robinso as by far the greatest fighter I ever saw in his prime.I saw Robby at his peak 4 or 5 times...Poetry in motion...Perfect picture fighter...
But looking at the astounding, yes astounding career of Harry Greb,I
along with many others happen to believe, that as great a fighter Robinson was, he would not be able to cope and SURVIVE, the many great Light Heavies ,and heavies that the Pittsburgh Windmill licked..No way..
Greb ,though not a picture fighter as Robby, had a style and boxing
career that was unique,in boxing history...
I mean this question to you in all respect as I value your opinions...
Do you think that Ray Robinson as a middleweight coulkd have beaten such 175 pounders as Gene Tunney, Tommy Loughran,Tommy Gibbons,
Jack Dillon,Gunboat Smith, Battling Levinsky, Maxie Rosenbloom,and heavier men as Willie Meehan,Bill Brennan, Joe Cox,etc,as the rugged
Harry Greb did numerous times ?Of course not...Doesn't this roster of
great 175 pounders cause you McGrath to reconsider your opinion ??
One other thing Kid Gavilan who I saw a couple of times in MSG was
at best 147 pounds in his career, while hiughly regarded Louy Bogash
who fought everyone on equall terms scaled ten pounds more in his career,and would have been too big for the Welter Gavilan IMO...
Against Tunney ,Greb was never within the middle limit,
Greb Tunney
165 1/2 174
162 174 1/2
166 175
171 1/2 175
162 1/4 174 1/2
167 181



Greb Loughran
168 168
168 166
166 166
168 1/4 166
167 163 1/2
168 168 1/2

Greb conceded weight to Tunney, but he was allways over the limit as a middle.
Loughran only once exceeded Greb in weight ,and only by half a pound .

I take Harry to win a close dec,but anyone picking Robinson should not be castigated imo,.They were both ATG's,and vie for the title best P4P, along with Armstrong, Langford and Fitz.
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:52 PM   #87
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Against Tunney ,Greb was never within the middle limit,
Greb Tunney
165 1/2 174
162 174 1/2
166 175
171 1/2 175
162 1/4 174 1/2
167 181



Greb Loughran
168 168
168 166
166 166
168 1/4 166
167 163 1/2
168 168 1/2

Greb conceded weight to Tunney, but he was allways over the limit as a middle.
Loughran only once exceeded Greb in weight ,and only by half a pound .

I take Harry to win a close dec,but anyone picking Robinson should not be castigated imo,.They were both ATG's,and vie for the title best P4P, along with Armstrong, Langford and Fitz.
Yes Greb when he fought these bigger men was over the 160 pound limit
for a good reason...He was not fighting for the 160 pound title...Why torture himself to make the weight when he did not have to ?Makes no
sense...
But when in his last year Greb fought Mickey Walker, and later on Tiger Flowers twice, Greb came in at about 159 pounds,for the bouts...He was a middleweight fighter when he was required to be when he fought for the
160 pound title...Just as so many others including Jake LaMotta whose
walking around weight was 170lbs...What fighter including Greb would
sacrifice a couple of good meals when he was not legally bound to make any weight,as long as he felt ok ?
One other point..I have never castigated any thinking poster who picks Ray Robinson over Greb, except when they use the old bromide of "well I have never seen films of Greb ",therefore he was not as good as Robinson.
Ignoring the opinions of everyone who saw him at his zenith, and overlooking al the great Hall of Famers Greb whipped repeatedly...
This gets my dander up...
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Old 07-16-2010, 04:35 PM   #88
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Yes Greb when he fought these bigger men was over the 160 pound limit
for a good reason...He was not fighting for the 160 pound title...Why torture himself to make the weight when he did not have to ?Makes no
sense...
But when in his last year Greb fought Mickey Walker, and later on Tiger Flowers twice, Greb came in at about 159 pounds,for the bouts...He was a middleweight fighter when he was required to be when he fought for the
160 pound title...Just as so many others including Jake LaMotta whose
walking around weight was 170lbs...What fighter including Greb would
sacrifice a couple of good meals when he was not legally bound to make any weight,as long as he felt ok ?
One other point..I have never castigated any thinking poster who picks Ray Robinson over Greb, except when they use the old bromide of "well I have never seen films of Greb ",therefore he was not as good as Robinson.
Ignoring the opinions of everyone who saw him at his zenith, and overlooking al the great Hall of Famers Greb whipped repeatedly...
This gets my dander up...
I was not referring to you when I mentioned the term castigate, its just that some posters on this thread have become very dogmatic on their pick,personally I go for Greb ,but anyone who writes off SRR's chances against ANY man near his own weight is selling Robinson short ,imo.
I have read that Greb had a hell of a time making the weight for the Walker fight and, consequently, had to uncharacteristically pace himself in the early going .Possibly Klompton will charge in now, and tell me I am talking out of my rectum . He may well be the resident authority on Harry Greb, no one has challenged it ,but his manner of debate can be abrupt and ,shall we say undiplomatic.
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Old 07-16-2010, 04:58 PM   #89
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I was not referring to you when I mentioned the term castigate, its just that some posters on this thread have become very dogmatic on their pick,personally I go for Greb ,but anyone who writes off SRR's chances against ANY man near his own weight is selling Robinson short ,imo.
I have read that Greb had a hell of a time making the weight for the Walker fight and, consequently, had to uncharacteristically pace himself in the early going .Possibly Klompton will charge in now, and tell me I am talking out of my rectum . He may well be the resident authority on Harry Greb, no one has challenged it ,but his manner of debate can be abrupt and ,shall we say undiplomatic.
I am not an authority on Harry Greb, just a devotee..But I have read that to make the weightfoir Mickey Walker ,Greb ran around the Central Park reservoir,a couple of times, and drank orange drinks after...He took a good pounding at the beginning of the fight, and probably got his second wind.
and the rest is history...Grebs resume' is almost surreal, it seems...b.b.
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Old 07-16-2010, 05:08 PM   #90
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I am not an authority on Harry Greb, just a devotee..But I have read that to make the weightfoir Mickey Walker ,Greb ran around the Central Park reservoir,a couple of times, and drank orange drinks after...He took a good pounding at the beginning of the fight, and probably got his second wind.
and the rest is history...Grebs resume' is almost surreal, it seems...b.b.
I think he takes my P4P.!
ps I am no authority on any aspect of boxing ,just an afficionado.

Last edited by mcvey; 07-16-2010 at 06:12 PM.
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