Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-16-2010, 10:01 PM   #91
Jersey Joe
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 912
vCash: 975
Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Prime Greb handled much bigger men, and beat bigger master boxers like Tunney and Gibbons who proved themselves at LHW and HW.

Robinson is a welterweight, so he runs into the great small guy vs great bigger guy problem. His defence was only average so he has to rely on his great offence to win - but Greb was hard to hit and had a granite chin proven all the way up to HW. Robinson wouldn't stop him in million years. I think Ray would get outworked, out-hustled, bullied and pushed around, and swarmed all over for 15 rounds on the way to a decision loss.

Last edited by Jersey Joe; 07-16-2010 at 10:19 PM.
Jersey Joe is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-18-2010, 11:55 AM   #92
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,764
vCash: 1210
Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
What is the evidence that the two New York writers were biased against Greb? What other supposed one-sided Greb victories did they find against him in, Tunney aside?
Thomas S. Rice of Brooklyn Daily Eagle, for example, was biased against Greb, calling him neither a boxer, nor a fighter.
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2010, 12:11 PM   #93
klompton
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,834
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Rice was a bad one. I am not home in front of my articles. When I get home I will show examples of three or four who were ridiculously against Greb. Rice was so bad his paper actually published letters from fans refuting his biased one sided articles against Greb. unless Im mistaken he actually printed that Greb lost the fight against Gibbons in the Garden and the first fight against Tunney. Both of which were the definition of one sided.
klompton is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2010, 12:13 PM   #94
Bummy Davis
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 9,299
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

On paper SRR looks like he had it all and he almost did but Greb was a rhythm breaker and a speedy guy and durable. I can see this being a tough fight for Ray and out of 10 fights I think its ebb and Flow

At 160 I favor Greb, prime to prime
Bummy Davis is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2010, 01:05 PM   #95
GPater11093
Barry
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 19,025
vCash: 836
Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by klompton View Post
Greb would kick the shit out of Robinson. He was far better and more dynamic in pretty much every sense of the word than LaMotta who ray struggled mightily with. Against Greb Ray wouldnt have his speed advantage either. He hit hard but did he hit as hard as heavyweights that Greb fought? What could the naturally smaller Robinson do that Greb had never seen? You name it Greb faced it and beat it. Greb wins a 15 round decision proving conclusively that Robinson is not the greatest p4p.
Why does Greb having sucess against bigger men translate into him having it easier against men his size or littler? Fighting bigger men is different to fighting smaller men, and some fighters find it easier one way or the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
I'd pick Robinson to beat Greb, for what little it is worth.
Could you break it down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by klompton View Post
What makes you think his power would make Greb flinch and that Greb forcing him to fight off the back foot would effect Greb negatively? Robinson struggled his ass off in two fights against Turpin whose best asset was his physical strength. You think Greb couldnt bring that same strength or more to bear? People question his ability to deal with pressure because he showed throughout his career that if you had a great chin, strength, and a pressure style you could have success with Robinson. Greb did these things as well or better than anyone Robinson ever faced.
Turpin's awkward head movement and punching style also played apart, but he was not like Greb in that department.

I think the Fullmer fight is more an indicater for the sucess Greb could enjoy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpw417 View Post
This is the lone voice of OBJECTIVE reasoning in this thread...ie. not having an agenda to push...Cheers McGrain, much appreciated.
You need to post more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bman100 View Post
I meant he was similar in saying that he was willing to fight as a hevyweight in this way they are similar, the difference is Greb actually did it, a HUGE difference sure, actions speak louder than words, I was merely pointing out that Robinson was not afraid to move up in weight class as it was pointed out here that he fought in more than just two weight classes.

He did go bigger when he had no options left in the division. At welter he defended it a meagre 4 times. At middle he beat everyone so tried for light hevyweight, failed due to heat then retired. when he came back the after three years the middleweight had lots of new people, fresh faces, three years is a long time, not to mention he couldnt go through everyone so easily as he was getitng older. Are you saying that he wouldnt have gone up in weight class if he had he incentive to?...money and competition, he had that plenty at middle when he came back after a layoff so there was no need to move up. Yet he was willing to fight higher weight classes., he was in negotiations to fight Moore if im right, Moore backed out, so they were similar in this regard. Yes, he knew his limits but he didnt hesitate to move up and fight everyone. they are alike.
See above Burt, how does this effect the match up?

I actually think this is a very interesting bout, I like Greb here. He was awkward, fast and explosive in his movements he could keep Robinson off-balance, like Fullmer but instead of using a jab he would step in with sharp combo's IMO. I think this is the general swing of the fight, Greb keeping Robinson off-balance and Ray struglling to get his balance and poise to tackle Greb.
GPater11093 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2010, 01:14 PM   #96
SLAKKA
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,897
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
Thomas S. Rice of Brooklyn Daily Eagle, for example, was biased against Greb, calling him neither a boxer, nor a fighter.
Excuse me
Rice, Having never seen Greb prior to the 4th Gibbons fight in MSG picked Gibbons. When Greb whipped Gibbons Rice proved himself a sore looser.
SLAKKA is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2010, 01:42 PM   #97
yaca you
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 2,153
vCash: 75
Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
This is one of boxing's great mysteries. Greb-Tunney I and Greb-Walker were definitely filmed. There have been rumors for years that Greb-Walker is indeed in private hands. Tunney-Carpentier was filmed, and it seems highly improbable that Greb-Tunney IV in Cleveland wasn't filmed less than two months later. But there are not even accounts of these films being viewed in movie theaters. Nobody alive today saw Greb compete in the flesh, but one might expect somebody still around to have seen footage of Harry back in the 1930s and 1940s. Nothing.

Beyond that, Greb's hometown was also the home of pioneering radio station KDKA, which broadcast Greb-Tunney I from MSG II (an arena which the colorful Mickey Walker referred to as "the old, smelly one"), and presumably a number of Harry's other fights, especially from Motor Square Garden in Pittsburgh. But Bill Cayton had a number of fight broadcast recordings, and nothing of Greb's. The post Johnson-Jeffries ban on the interstate transport of boxing films did not extend to audio recordings. KDKA's 1920 announcement of Harding's election as President exists in pristine form, so one might expect recordings of Harry's bouts and even interviews to have been conducted with the man himself. If not, that's an incredible opportunity which was lost.
thanks
yaca you is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2010, 02:08 PM   #98
SLAKKA
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,897
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Smoking gun on the bogash fight. Onna of the 3 Newark paps sports editorial in the days after...."The ny boys seem to have it in for Harry Greb. Last week he was here whipping Bogash handily and they reported a loss or draw"... all 3 Newark paps reported Greb winning as did my late rinside pally Natie Liff who was more or less the Ray Arcel of Pitt. One of the few accurate snippets of the first greb book "give him to the angels" was the ny boxing writers asking Harry and Red Mason to grease their palm only to meet with Harrys fury. The Bogash fight amoung others became Harrys consequence.
inho
Harrys first nyc fight vs london 1917 Harrys wins by tko. Harrys performance was widely dammed by the ny press.
Its just my gut feelings this was the begining of Harrys problems with these guys. He laid a hellva impressive beating on London by all pitt accounts.
SLAKKA is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2010, 02:26 PM   #99
klompton
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,834
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLAKKA View Post
Smoking gun on the bogash fight. Onna of the 3 Newark paps sports editorial in the days after...."The ny boys seem to have it in for Harry Greb. Last week he was here whipping Bogash handily and they reported a loss or draw"... all 3 Newark paps reported Greb winning as did my late rinside pally Natie Liff who was more or less the Ray Arcel of Pitt. One of the few accurate snippets of the first greb book "give him to the angels" was the ny boxing writers asking Harry and Red Mason to grease their palm only to meet with Harrys fury. The Bogash fight amoung others became Harrys consequence.
inho
Harrys first nyc fight vs london 1917 Harrys wins by tko. Harrys performance was widely dammed by the ny press.
Its just my gut feelings this was the begining of Harrys problems with these guys. He laid a hellva impressive beating on London by all pitt accounts.

Not to mentioned London had been a former amateur champion in NY and Greb had to face him on short notice when his original opponent couldnt fight. His original opponent was a middleweight and London was a LHW. Greb easily beat London and the papers still had nothing nice to say about him. It wasnt until he fought and impressively stopped Johnny Howard who was a well known contender later that year that he got some decent press. The bottom line is if you werent from new york and were trying to come in and make a name for yourself you either had to grease some palms, be connected somehow, or suffer some terrible treatment from the press, managers, commission, and promoters and the press was the sounding board for the latter three and by all accounts got paid handsomely for it.
klompton is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 09:51 AM   #100
bman100
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 887
vCash: 500
Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by klompton View Post
Greb would kick the shit out of Robinson. He was far better and more dynamic in pretty much every sense of the word than LaMotta who ray struggled mightily with. Against Greb Ray wouldnt have his speed advantage either. He hit hard but did he hit as hard as heavyweights that Greb fought? What could the naturally smaller Robinson do that Greb had never seen? You name it Greb faced it and beat it. Greb wins a 15 round decision proving conclusively that Robinson is not the greatest p4p.

I know this is old but I gotta ask, you really think Greb was better/ more dynamic than SRR? I mean Greb accomplished more and has a much better resume than Robinson for sure but SRR was a very skilled technician which is why he was fighting all those fighters at the top when he was shot, I always thought Greb got past all those guys on physical attributes, but you think he was more able to do things in the ring than SRR, had a better ring IQ and so forth?
bman100 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 10:48 AM   #101
burt bienstock
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7,766
vCash: 500
Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Joe View Post
Prime Greb handled much bigger men, and beat bigger master boxers like Tunney and Gibbons who proved themselves at LHW and HW.

Robinson is a welterweight, so he runs into the great small guy vs great bigger guy problem. His defence was only average so he has to rely on his great offence to win - but Greb was hard to hit and had a granite chin proven all the way up to HW. Robinson wouldn't stop him in million years. I think Ray would get outworked, out-hustled, bullied and pushed around, and swarmed all over for 15 rounds on the way to a decision loss.
JJ your analysis sums up to me how a fight between these two alltime greats
would pan out. Greb would be too strong and rough for Robinson,both at middleweight . Beautiful style doesn't necassarily translate to victory.
JJ you summed it up
burt bienstock is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 12:23 PM   #102
bman100
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 887
vCash: 500
Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Joe View Post
Prime Greb handled much bigger men, and beat bigger master boxers like Tunney and Gibbons who proved themselves at LHW and HW.

Robinson is a welterweight, so he runs into the great small guy vs great bigger guy problem. His defence was only average so he has to rely on his great offence to win - but Greb was hard to hit and had a granite chin proven all the way up to HW. Robinson wouldn't stop him in million years. I think Ray would get outworked, out-hustled, bullied and pushed around, and swarmed all over for 15 rounds on the way to a decision loss.
Not true, Robinson actually had superb defence, it was just harder as a MW to be as good as he was defensively as when he was younger when he slowed own, in his prime he relied on his reflexes and was mostly never usually solidly hit. Being a natrually aggressive fighter, he gave up defence in order to get to the other guy, but he was superb when he thought about it. For example In his fourth fight with Lamotta, Don Dunphy describes wwhere he is pushed on the ropes and he slips and parries something like 10-15 punches while Lamotta (an elite opponent) punches trying to catch him- he is unable to. Greb was not like most, I've read that writers found it strange that for being such as aggressive fighter, he was never tagged solidly.

The only real weakness had was his lack of strength and not-so-amazing inside fighting both of which Greb had in spades (as did Jake Lamotta), Robinson would have to rely on his footwork to move around and open up every so often. Robinson also had scary punching power which is also a great help.
bman100 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 12:27 PM   #103
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,610
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Joe View Post
Robinson is a welterweight, so he runs into the great small guy vs great bigger guy problem. .
Welterweight Soldier Bartfield didn't have that problem despite being outweighed by about 20lbs and in a 6fight series beat and drew with Greb. He was said to have given Greb problems with his speed
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 01:27 PM   #104
Surf-Bat
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 3,089
vCash: 500
Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by bman100 View Post
but SRR was a very skilled technician
True, but those are the types of fighters Greb gave the most problems to. Greb tied technical boxers into knots with his unorthodox style.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bman100 View Post
you think he was more able to do things in the ring than SRR, had a better ring IQ and so forth?
Hard to say. But he fought many more fights and many more rounds against a lot more fighters (and greater ones at that). That sort of on the job education has to be considered when comparing the two.
Surf-Bat is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 01:31 PM   #105
D.T
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,009
vCash: 500
Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Greb has a must chance as a snowball does in hell.
D.T is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013