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Old 04-17-2011, 01:35 PM   #106
burt bienstock
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Welterweight Soldier Bartfield didn't have that problem despite being outweighed by about 20lbs and in a 6fight series beat and drew with Greb. He was said to have given Greb problems with his speed
I wouldn't say that Greb was 20 lbs heavier than Soldier Bartfield ,or that
Bartfield was"even" in their bouts. Not at all. But Soldier Bartfield was EVERY bit as good a fighter in his time as Tiger Jones was when he licked Ray Robinson in 1955. Soldier Bartfield was a tough hombre in HIS day...
P.S. I should know ,as I posted before in about 1946 or so I as a youngster 'along with my dad met the 55 fivesh Soldier Bartfield in ny Uncles restaurant
in NY. He was working near there. My uncle introduced us to him, and we shook mitts, and then playfully,he grabbed me in close and pummeled my two sides,jokingly. It hurt ,so my dad pulled him off me. He was so strong. At that time I, never knew that he fought Harry Greb numerous times. But my dad did cause he saw young Bartfield fight in NY clubs. Wow, I now think to myself, I was in a clinch with a guy,who was in many a clinch with my favorite fighter Harry Greb. My sole claim to fame...Cheers.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:38 PM   #107
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

As I said... Greb has as much chance as a snowball does in hell.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:44 PM   #108
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Robinson is aguably the GOAT, but I don't see him being able to overcome Greb. Ray gets some great shots in, but the Pittsburgh Windmill is ultimately too big and strong.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:47 PM   #109
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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I wouldn't say that Greb was 20 lbs heavier than Soldier Bartfield ,or that
Bartfield was"even" in their bouts. Not at all. But Soldier Bartfield was EVERY bit as good a fighter in his time as Tiger Jones was when he licked Ray Robinson in 1955. Soldier Bartfield was a tough hombre in HIS day...
P.S. I should know ,as I posted before in about 1946 or so I as a youngster 'along with my dad met the 55 fivesh Soldier Bartfield in ny Uncles restaurant
in NY. He was working near there. My uncle introduced us to him, and we shook mitts, and then playfully,he grabbed me in close and pummeled my two sides,jokingly. It hurt ,so my dad pulled him off me. He was so strong. At that time I, never knew that he fought Harry Greb numerous times. But my dad did cause he saw young Bartfield fight in NY clubs. Wow, I now think to myself, I was in a clinch with a guy,who was in many a clinch with my favorite fighter Harry Greb. My sole claim to fame...Cheers.
Greb won the newspaper decision. (Coshocton Tribune) The Pittsburgh Post also reported Greb the winner. Harry had a 21-pound weight advantage. There was a lot of pulling and hauling, but Greb stayed well ahead. He put Bartfield down in the 4th. It was a "very tame affair."

Robinson was 34, past prime and ring rusty in '55.

PS a grown man seeming strong and hurting a little kid isn't a very good indication of strength
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Old 04-17-2011, 02:06 PM   #110
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Greb won the newspaper decision. (Coshocton Tribune) The Pittsburgh Post also reported Greb the winner. Harry had a 21-pound weight advantage. There was a lot of pulling and hauling, but Greb stayed well ahead. He put Bartfield down in the 4th. It was a "very tame affair."

Robinson was 34, past prime and ring rusty in '55.

PS a grown man seeming strong and hurting a little kid isn't a very good indication of strength
P, what you cite above may be true ! But,My anecdote about being manhandled [playfully] by Soldier Bartfield,as a youngster in 1946 wasn't
meant to buttress the resume of Soldier Barfield. His record speaks for itself.One tough bird in a very tough era was THE Soldier .
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Old 04-17-2011, 02:16 PM   #111
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Bartfield was a troublesome fighter for many, not just Greb. Like Harry he had his own unorthodox ways that threw a lot of opponents off their game. It wasn't just speed.

Soldier Bartfield can't be held up as some sort of indicator of how SRR would fare against Greb. Two totally different fighters.
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Old 04-17-2011, 03:16 PM   #112
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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True, but those are the types of fighters Greb gave the most problems to. Greb tied technical boxers into knots with his unorthodox style.




Hard to say. But he fought many more fights and many more rounds against a lot more fighters (and greater ones at that). That sort of on the job education has to be considered when comparing the two.
1. Not all the time, Tommy Gibbons beat Greb a couple times before Greb destroyed him in 1922. Gibbons was "technical boxer." Tunney beat Greb twice at least (by klompton's research) though it is unfair because Greb was a ring worn blind shell of the man he was in his prime.

2. sure Greb beat greater fighters, From reading on him though he did it with his erratic windmill style against the likes of Loughran, Tunney, Dempsey etc. What I mean is that writers of the time never wrote of his thinking ability and smarts in the ring the way they did of Benny Leonard- a "clever fighter". Robinson was clever, Greb got his winds though he seemed to do it by just doing what he usually did. Robinson always had a plan B.

I know your well versed on the era, just a question, when you look at guys like Langford, Robinson or even Manny Pacquiao, they are always recognised as p4p the best of their time, how they are shoulders over everybody else. With Greb, in his time where was it said that he was recognised as being the best, most people would say Leonard or Dempsey was the best. Why, when Greb was alive and fighting not given the title of being p4p no1 in his time by the writers and commentators of the sport? Not doubting Greb's greatness as a fighter but just a general question.
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Old 04-17-2011, 04:24 PM   #113
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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I know this is old but I gotta ask, you really think Greb was better/ more dynamic than SRR? I mean Greb accomplished more and has a much better resume than Robinson for sure but SRR was a very skilled technician which is why he was fighting all those fighters at the top when he was shot, I always thought Greb got past all those guys on physical attributes, but you think he was more able to do things in the ring than SRR, had a better ring IQ and so forth?

I think Greb's size advantage, style, and speed would be a nightmare for Robinson. Look at the guys Robinson had the most trouble with and they are all cheap imitations of Greb.
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Old 04-17-2011, 05:02 PM   #114
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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As I said... Greb has as much chance as a snowball does in hell.
Then I guess hell is about to get frozen over!
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:37 PM   #115
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

"... just a question, when you look at guys like Langford, Robinson or even Manny Pacquiao, they are always recognised as p4p the best of their time, how they are shoulders over everybody else. With Greb, in his time where was it said that he was recognised as being the best, most people would say Leonard or Dempsey was the best. Why, when Greb was alive and fighting not given the title of being p4p no1 in his time by the writers and commentators of the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]? Not doubting Greb's greatness as a fighter but just a general question."

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Old 04-18-2011, 02:06 PM   #116
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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"... just a question, when you look at guys like Langford, Robinson or even Manny Pacquiao, they are always recognised as p4p the best of their time, how they are shoulders over everybody else. With Greb, in his time where was it said that he was recognised as being the best, most people would say Leonard or Dempsey was the best. Why, when Greb was alive and fighting not given the title of being p4p no1 in his time by the writers and commentators of the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]? Not doubting Greb's greatness as a fighter but just a general question."

bman,You inquire why Harry Greb was in his time, alongst with Jack Dempsey and Benny Leonard,not recognized as the"Best P4P fighter of his times"? The answer is quite simple,b. There was no such designation as the
best P4P fighter in those days. NONE. That apppelation was formed during the times of Ray Robinson,MANY years later.
P.S. Jack Dempsey was THE greatest fighter recognized at that time,simply because,a heavyweight champion was able to lick any man in the world,at that time. Not necessarily better at his weight, than any other Champion at the lower divisions , were at their weight. But though Benny Leonard was
the "Ray Robinson" of his time,and Jack Dempsey was a killer puncher, I
now bestow the honor of best P4P title of the 1920s to Harry Greb, belated
though it is .Cheers B.
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Old 04-18-2011, 04:23 PM   #117
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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bman,You inquire why Harry Greb was in his time, alongst with Jack Dempsey and Benny Leonard,not recognized as the"Best P4P fighter of his times"? The answer is quite simple,b. There was no such designation as the
best P4P fighter in those days. NONE. That apppelation was formed during the times of Ray Robinson,MANY years later.
P.S. Jack Dempsey was THE greatest fighter recognized at that time,simply because,a heavyweight champion was able to lick any man in the world,at that time. Not necessarily better at his weight, than any other Champion at the lower divisions , were at their weight. But though Benny Leonard was
the "Ray Robinson" of his time,and Jack Dempsey was a killer puncher, I
now bestow the honor of best P4P title of the 1920s to Harry Greb, belated
though it is .Cheers B.
Good answer. Also remember that Leonard and Dempsey were darlings of the NY newspapermen. Greb absolutely was NOT.
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Old 04-18-2011, 05:12 PM   #118
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

I think they did consider the pound for pound question, but just didnt call it pound for pound.

Here is two articles, one considering young Griffo the greatest ever, and the second having Tony Canzoneri voted the "pound for pound" greates for the second year in a row.

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[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 04-18-2011, 05:29 PM   #119
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

When people talk about Robinson's speed in this hypothetical situation, let's not forget that Tunney was also a taller and highly skilled technician who could punch, and Gene meets nobody's definition of "slow."

Take a look at Tunney beating the shit out of Carpentier. That was no green Gene who Harry was widely reported to have taken nine of ten rounds from in Cleveland less than two months later. There's evidence that Greb deserved the decision in fights two and four as well as fight one. Even in the best fantasy case scenario where the broadcast recordings and films of Greb-Tunney I and Greb-Walker were to miraculously surface together, that still wouldn't supply us with a picture of the peak two-eyed menace who wreaked havoc on Bill Brennan in Tulsa over the championship distance the very day Dempsey was crowned in Toldeo. (It's fascinating to think that Harry and Jack may well have peaked on the same date.)
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:42 AM   #120
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Those picking robinson i think are totally guilty of thinking that the more 'aesthetically pleasing' ,eye pleasing and technically correct great is somewhow superior to the unorthodox great.
I see no possible scenario how robinson beats Greb. Greb is a swarming,rythym breaking nightmare style,moreso than
la motta/basillio/fullmer,bigger than those three,has unlimited stamina,a heavyweight chin,the speed of a cat,the strength of turpin but most importantly the priceless gift of the ability to beat any 160 man in history and most of the lt heavies as well.
This is THE absolute worst matchup for Robinson at 160.
A man whom the great 175er Tunney could not outbox or overwhelm till the fifith fight and your telling me a natural 154er is going to have a chance? ray has no chance of stopping Greb,and i fail to see how he would outbox Greb on the front or back foot.
Greb is as clear cut the no1 160 man as could be to those with an impartial eye.
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