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Old 07-19-2010, 05:34 PM   #1
bman100
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Default Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

Out of the Black Murderers' Row some of which Robinson should have fought at his peak and blatantly ducked, what would the outcome of each fight. With Ray at welterweight peak 147lbs, who would win out of:

Charley Burley (Who Ray ducked and of whom Ray said the famous line "I'm too pretty to fight Burley, had the fight taken place in 1942, what would the outcome be?)

Holman Williams (not sure if they ever had an agreement to fight but it would be a very ineresting bout nontheless, who takes it?)

Jack Chase (by the time Sugar was on the scene this man was a middleweight, still Robinson fought middleweight Lamotta while a welter himself)

Lloyd Marshell (also a middleweight, Burley who fought him said it was his roughest fight who takes it)

Cocoa Kid (who dropped a peak sugar ray during a sparring session, this was when Cocoa was himself over the hill and inactive at 36. Robbie used him as a aparring partner in the late 40s. Sugar was supposed to meet him in the ring when still active but bolted at the last minute.)

Bert Lytell (a middleweight contender, there was no obligation for sugar to fight him, il admit i just added this one out of curiosity.)

Tiger Wade (a another who sugar used in the late 40s as a sparring partner, semi-retired, He seperated Robinson's sixth and seventh ribs in a spar, this was when he was old! Robinson actually fought him when he was a faded old man and was KOd by a similar shot to the ribs, before that was he was on the floor 5 times in 3 rounds, the fight was in 1950, but what it he was at his peak, would would the outcome of the fight be were they both in their prime.)

Thats it, so how would these fights go?

Last edited by bman100; 07-19-2010 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 07-19-2010, 05:36 PM   #2
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

They all have the potential to beat Robinson and also lose to him. I think generally Robinson beats all of them most of the time with Burley, Marshall, Williams and Cocoa Kid being the hardest bouts.
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Old 07-19-2010, 07:18 PM   #3
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

Quote:
Originally Posted by bman100 View Post
Out of the Black Murderers' Row some of which Robinson should have fought at his peak and blatantly ducked, what would the outcome of each fight. With Ray at welterweight peak 147lbs, who would win out of:

Charley Burley (Who Ray ducked and of whom Ray said the famous line "I'm too pretty to fight Burley, had the fight taken place in 1942, what would the outcome be?)

Holman Williams (not sure if they ever had an agreement to fight but it would be a very ineresting bout nontheless, who takes it?)

Jack Chase (by the time Sugar was on the scene this man was a middleweight, still Robinson fought middleweight Lamotta while a welter himself)

Lloyd Marshell (also a middleweight, Burley who fought him said it was his roughest fight who takes it)

Cocoa Kid (who dropped a peak sugar ray during a sparring session, this was when Cocoa was himself over the hill and inactive at 36. Robbie used him as a aparring partner in the late 40s. Sugar was supposed to meet him in the ring when still active but bolted at the last minute.)

Bert Lytell (a middleweight contender, there was no obligation for sugar to fight him, il admit i just added this one out of curiosity.)

Tiger Wade (a another who sugar used in the late 40s as a sparring partner, semi-retired, He seperated Robinson's sixth and seventh ribs in a spar, this was when he was old! Robinson actually fought him when he was a faded old man and was KOd by a similar shot to the ribs, before that was he was on the floor 5 times in 3 rounds, the fight was in 1950, but what it he was at his peak, would would the outcome of the fight be were they both in their prime.)

Thats it, so how would these fights go?
^^
This is a big reason why I often question Ray Robinson's status as the best ever.
That's 6 or 7 guys he could have and should have fought. Robinson's skills and talents speak for themselves but his resume has holes.
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Old 07-19-2010, 07:55 PM   #4
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

ripcity, I dont think he should have fought any of them. Most of them were past prime and campaigning at Middleweight as Robinson came to light as a small Welterweight. Most, if not all of them, were past prime and heavier than Robinson and some had even ceased to be a valid contender to fight Robinson.

The only fighter here I think has a legitimate arguemt for being ducked by Robinson, is Burley. The two should have met for the Vacant crown or met in an eliminater for it at least. After Robinson won the Welterweight crown, Burley was campaigning solely at Middleweight.

I think Robinson really came to prominence when the Murderer's Row was on the way out, and he can not be accused of having ducked the whole row as you have implied. I would very much like to hear when you propose Ray should have met some of these fighters.
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:11 PM   #5
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

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Originally Posted by GPater11093 View Post
ripcity, I dont think he should have fought any of them. Most of them were past prime and campaigning at Middleweight as Robinson came to light as a small Welterweight. Most, if not all of them, were past prime and heavier than Robinson and some had even ceased to be a valid contender to fight Robinson.

The only fighter here I think has a legitimate arguemt for being ducked by Robinson, is Burley. The two should have met for the Vacant crown or met in an eliminater for it at least. After Robinson won the Welterweight crown, Burley was campaigning solely at Middleweight.

I think Robinson really came to prominence when the Murderer's Row was on the way out, and he can not be accused of having ducked the whole row as you have implied. I would very much like to hear when you propose Ray should have met some of these fighters.
Ripcity has no idea what he's talking about on any topic. You do, however. I was on my way to typing a response to him before you pretty much covered the bases here. Good post.
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:13 PM   #6
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

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Originally Posted by El Bujia View Post
Ripcity has no idea what he's talking about on any topic. You do, however. I was on my way to typing a response to him before you pretty much covered the bases here. Good post.
Why thank you.

I think if anyone ducked the 'Black Murderer's' it would be Zale.
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:22 PM   #7
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

According to messers fritzie zivic and beau jack, charlie burley wouldn't be a problem for srr
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:27 PM   #8
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

Perhaps so, but Burley was very highly regarded by other observers of the time and definitly was an equal of SRR according to some like Eddie Futch.
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:37 PM   #9
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

There really should be a long documentary on The Black Murderer's Row I would love to see it. Like GPater said, the only one Ray really ducked was Burley.
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Old 07-20-2010, 06:03 AM   #10
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripcity View Post
^^
This is a big reason why I often question Ray Robinson's status as the best ever.
That's 6 or 7 guys he could have and should have fought. Robinson's skills and talents speak for themselves but his resume has holes.
No, his resume is outstanding by any criteria set, you can't judge a fighter on speculation, nut only on what they actually did, and Robinson did plenty. It would have been nice if he would have fought some of the row, but as it stands we can only judge him on his actual resume, which is glittering.

His resume has holes? People shouldn;t talk if they don't know,
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Old 07-20-2010, 06:11 AM   #11
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

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Originally Posted by GPater11093 View Post
Why thank you.

I think if anyone ducked the 'Black Murderer's' it would be Zale.
'Why would I fight Charles Burley when I can fight Zivic 5 times instead' - Jake Lamotta

Wasn't Burley willing to come down to 147 to fight Robinson? Someone here posted Robinson was offered career high money to fight Burley at some stage
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Old 07-20-2010, 06:12 AM   #12
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

Quote:
Originally Posted by bman100 View Post
Out of the Black Murderers' Row some of which Robinson should have fought at his peak and blatantly ducked, what would the outcome of each fight. With Ray at welterweight peak 147lbs, who would win out of:

Charley Burley (Who Ray ducked and of whom Ray said the famous line "I'm too pretty to fight Burley, had the fight taken place in 1942, what would the outcome be?)

Holman Williams (not sure if they ever had an agreement to fight but it would be a very ineresting bout nontheless, who takes it?)

Jack Chase (by the time Sugar was on the scene this man was a middleweight, still Robinson fought middleweight Lamotta while a welter himself)

Lloyd Marshell (also a middleweight, Burley who fought him said it was his roughest fight who takes it)

Cocoa Kid (who dropped a peak sugar ray during a sparring session, this was when Cocoa was himself over the hill and inactive at 36. Robbie used him as a aparring partner in the late 40s. Sugar was supposed to meet him in the ring when still active but bolted at the last minute.)

Bert Lytell (a middleweight contender, there was no obligation for sugar to fight him, il admit i just added this one out of curiosity.)

Tiger Wade (a another who sugar used in the late 40s as a sparring partner, semi-retired, He seperated Robinson's sixth and seventh ribs in a spar, this was when he was old! Robinson actually fought him when he was a faded old man and was KOd by a similar shot to the ribs, before that was he was on the floor 5 times in 3 rounds, the fight was in 1950, but what it he was at his peak, would would the outcome of the fight be were they both in their prime.)

Thats it, so how would these fights go?
Sugar Ray hardly faced any black talent at all as champion. On film, Sugar Ray has fantastic skills. But I think his style and attack meant he was open to be hit a bit more than most pound for pound top talents.

A very good counter puncher, or a very good body puncher could in theory take advantage of his preferred method of boxing.
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Old 07-20-2010, 06:12 AM   #13
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
'Why would I fight Charles Burley when I can fight Zivic 5 times instead' - Jake Lamotta

Wasn't Burley willing to come down to 147 to fight Robinson? Someone here posted Robinson was offered career high money to fight Burley at some stage
He was going to do the fight for free at one point wasn;t he? Sure i read that, if someone could clarify though it would be good.
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Old 07-20-2010, 06:12 AM   #14
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

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Originally Posted by techks View Post
There really should be a long documentary on The Black Murderer's Row I would love to see it. Like GPater said, the only one Ray really ducked was Burley.
Robinson was due to fight against a TBA opponent, found it was Cocoa Kid, told them he wasn't fighting. He wanted more money for such a fight. Not exactly a duck
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Old 07-20-2010, 06:13 AM   #15
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Sugar Ray hardly faced any black talent at all as champion. On film, Sugar Ray has fantastic skills. But I think his style and attack meant he was open to be hit a bit more than most pound for pound top talents.

A very good counter puncher, or a very good body puncher could in theory take advantage of his preferred method of boxing.
Counter-punching means shit against Robinson imo, i respect your opinion, but i think it's wrong.
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