Riddick Bowe vs Lennox Lewis in 1993?

[anut]

I think if bowe and lewis fought in 93....bowe already peaked at that point and lewis didnt peak until 96 to 2000)...........lewis looked like shit against tony tucker and bowe looked great against bowe and ferguson(although not great opponents)...........bowe had futch lewis didnt have anybody great(pepe correa)..........bowe knocks out lewis in 93

PS IF THEY FIGHT IN 95 OR 96 LEWIS BEATS BOWE NO PROBLEM

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by Seamus

The Holyfield who was almost crushed by Bert Cooper? The one who looked like a 60 year old man against Moorer? Or just generally the one who was on roids and HGH throughout his title "reign"?

Holyfield had a great heart and fought with passion. However, he was quite inconsistent AND he was a cheat.

How do you know he was on "roids and HGH" ?
How do you know Lennox Lewis wasn't ?

Being hurt by Bert Cooper is a stupid criticism. Joe Louis was decked by Galento and Braddock and KO'd by Max Schmeling, but that doesn't make him inconsistent.

Lennox Lewis looked a bit crap against Levi Billups, scrappy as hell against Tyrell Biggs, struggled a bit with Bruno, morbidly dreary against Phil Jackson and was KO'd by Oliver McCall ..... so he's in the same inconsistent category.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

How do you know he was on "roids and HGH" ?
How do you know Lennox Lewis wasn't ?

Lennox Lewis looked a bit crap against Levi Billups, scrappy as hell against Tyrell Biggs, struggled a bit with Bruno, morbidly dreary against Phil Jackson and was KO'd by Oliver McCall ..... so he's in the same inconsistent category.

"Evan Fields" anybody? And what ever happened to the supposed hole in his heart during the Moorer fight? I suppose you believe Benny Hinn healed that... rather than a few months off the HGH alleviated the symptoms that the medicos saw.

Lewis had inconsistencies, also, agreed. However that KO of Phil Jackson was an awesome combination that very few heavyweights could have thrown... and none of the size of the Lewis... ever.

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by Seamus

"Evan Fields" anybody? And what ever happened to the supposed hole in his heart during the Moorer fight? I suppose you believe Benny Hinn healed that... rather than a few months off the HGH alleviated the symptoms that the medicos saw.

Firstly, the Evans Fields story was never fully substantiated. Reporters claimed to have phoned a number they claimed to have been given to them through some sort of investiagtion. It was all vague and "alleged". This came in 2007 after years of people accusing Holyfield.
It's never come up in any court evidence, and Holyfield has never tested positive, or had any case to answer.
It could be 100% true, or it could be 100% smear on his reputation.

I find the story a little hard to believe, because if he was going to cover his identity (which of course he has to) he's not going to leave such obvious clues, esp. if he's been doing this for 20 odd years without getting caught.

As for the Moorer fight, I believe his arm/shoulder was injured and the "sticky heart trouble" thing was a mis-diagnosis.
In fact, watching the fight it was clear he had an injured arm/shoulder, and the commentary team were discussing it while the fight was in progress.

Having said all that, I think Holyfield and most other heavyweights have used anabolic agents/PEDs

[tommygun711]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Being hurt by Bert Cooper is a stupid criticism. Joe Louis was decked by Galento and Braddock and KO'd by Max Schmeling, but that doesn't make him inconsistent.

Lennox Lewis looked a bit crap against Levi Billups, scrappy as hell against Tyrell Biggs, struggled a bit with Bruno, morbidly dreary against Phil Jackson and was KO'd by Oliver McCall ..... so he's in the same inconsistent category.

Yeah, and Ali arguably got beat by Young, decked by Cooper, Wepner, Frazier, and Sonny Banks, so he must be inconsistent.

[Seamus]

As someone who drew a miniscule paycheck for reporting on fights during the Holy HW reign, let me clue you in on something. Holyfield was considered a placekeeper, an overacheiver and someone to be quickly dethroned. Kudo's to him for putting up such stiff resistance this notion. However, he faltered to some degree in almost every fight, from Dokes to Czyz. He was never thought of as the ATG some here make him out to be. There was always the air of fragility and of a small guy who knew he didn't belong at the weight. That said, I think he proved many wrong.

Bowe's arrival was a near coronation. It was almost a foregone conclusion he would win that first fight. His subsequent horrible title defenses against an absolutely useless Dokes and a hasbeen neverwas in Ferguson told all in the know what they needed to know. He wasn't the real goods. Shoddy defense, questionable heart in training, lazy, a bit soft, quick to bend the rules when the script didn't go as plan and ultimately fragile... he just wasn't the bill of goods he was sold as. While the sharks circled elsewhere in a stacked division, he did by fighting the likes of Gonzalez, Mathis and Hide. Those in the know were not fooled.

[Cachibatches]

I am going to assume that Bowe knew what he was doing by tossing the belt in the trash.

Lewis by KO.

[yaca you]

I am confused, lewis beat bowe in the ametures right?

then instead of facing lewis, bowe threw his belt in the trash.

It seems to me that bowe didnt want that fight. conclusion; bowe thought he would lose to lewis so he avoided the fight.

if bowe himself thought he would lose, why does everyone now think that bowe would win?

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by Seamus

As someone who drew a miniscule paycheck for reporting on fights during the Holy HW reign, let me clue you in on something. Holyfield was considered a placekeeper, an overacheiver and someone to be quickly dethroned. Kudo's to him for putting up such stiff resistance this notion. However, he faltered to some degree in almost every fight, from Dokes to Czyz. He was never thought of as the ATG some here make him out to be. There was always the air of fragility and of a small guy who knew he didn't belong at the weight. That said, I think he proved many wrong.

I lived through the era and followed boxing obssessively at that time. With all due respect, I dont need you to "clue me in".

The only relevant thing you say above is that "he proved many wrong".
That cancels out everything else you say.
I never went along with the people who were writing over-critical copy of Holyfield and his chances at heavyweight, just as I never went along with the "invincible Tyson" hype back in '87.

There's no such thing as an "overachiever". You cannot achieve MORE than you are able to achieve. It's illogical.
"Overachiever" is just an alibi for the assholes who say you cant do something.


Holyfield was painted as a "caretaker champion" by those many writers who had predicted Tyson would reign for 10 years. They'd written off Holyfield's chances of dethroning him back in '88 and '89, and lived comfortably in the delsuional notion that Tyson was the only heavyweight they really had to rate much.

Some writers, like Harry Mullan for example, were downright scathing against Holyfield, it was embarrassing. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but as you note, some opinions are just proven wrong.

But even if you go back and review the writing and commentary of the time, there was actually a lot of positive opinion about Holyfield hidden behind the lazy sheep-like repetition of the negative.
When I hear people say, "no one thought Holyfield would beat Tyson in '91" I laugh, because I have plenty of magazine articles and quotes that show that by that time many (most even) of the "experts" (trainers, fighters etc.) were picking Holyfield.

Bowe's arrival was a near coronation. It was almost a foregone conclusion he would win that first fight.

Except that it wasn't.
It was considered a truly "live" and intriguing fight, with predictions being split down the middle as to who would win.

His subsequent horrible title defenses against an absolutely useless Dokes and a hasbeen neverwas in Ferguson told all in the know what they needed to know. He wasn't the real goods. Shoddy defense, questionable heart in training, lazy, a bit soft, quick to bend the rules when the script didn't go as plan and ultimately fragile... he just wasn't the bill of goods he was sold as. While the sharks circled elsewhere in a stacked division, he did by fighting the likes of Gonzalez, Mathis and Hide. Those in the know were not fooled.

The "sharks circling in a stacked division" is pure revisionism.
There were only three names in the division - Bowe, Holyfield and Lewis.
Bowe ducked Lewis, I dont deny. He fought Holyfield 3 times.
I dont know who the others stacking the division were.
Bowe's manager was an asshole and liked to be in charge and independent, so maybe he made fights with guys who were less well-known.

As for your appraisal of Bowe's abilities in the ring, I simply dont agree.
Bowe had a lot to his game.

[lefthook31]

I dont know how anyone could say it was expected that Bowe would beat Holyfield in the first fight. That was not the case. In fact Holyfield wanted Bowe because he had sparred him in the gym and handled him quite easily. Bowe was showing no kind of will power in the gym and Holyfield felt it would be an easy title defense.
On a side note, heres a picture from yesterday of Bowe and Derrel Coley in the gym. Bowe is once again trying to get into shape to fight. He looks dreadful.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

The "sharks circling in a stacked division" is pure revisionism.
There were only three names in the division - Bowe, Holyfield and Lewis.
Bowe ducked Lewis, I dont deny. He fought Holyfield 3 times.
I dont know who the others stacking the division were.
Bowe's manager was an asshole and liked to be in charge and independent, so maybe he made fights with guys who were less well-known.

As for your appraisal of Bowe's abilities in the ring, I simply dont agree.
Bowe had a lot to his game.

Too busy lately to get on here much, but in response to a few of your points (a lot of which I agree with)...

Holyfield was seen as a placekeeper. Whether in retrospect that is true or not, it was the opinion of the time. I think he was warrior, through and though, demonstrating great heart. I also think Bowe in large part "had his number".

There were not only three names at the time. Moorer and Mercer were thought of nearly as highly as Bowe. This was before either of these two became lazy. I think you remember the famous Ring Cover "Who's Next?" with them on it. Foreman was becoming a live entity, also. (I'll skip the Alex Garcia hype). In addition, you had a still relevant Tucker, an emerging McCall, Morrison (which should have been an easy payday) and Ruddock. Bowe seemed to avoid all the above, and most importantly did the most embarrassing duck-job in avoiding Lewis. Newman was a world class asshole, that is true, but Bowe followed in line with what, outside of Holy-Tyson, was the biggest fight out there.

Bowe had easy to identify skills, nice, not great, jab, stiff right hand, excellent inside work, good whiskers. He also had porous defense, a propensity to become untracked in fights and lose focus, bad training habits and was a bit soft and fragile over the long run. These are all part of the complete package. As you said- and I agree- regarding overachievers, Bowe achieved exactly what he was capable of, a short title reign filled largely with hand-picked no-hopers. The trilogy with Holyfield is one for the ages, but outside of that there isn't much.

[Iceveins]

Bowe.

Lewis never faced someone his size with better boxing skills, equal power and an iron chin. Bowe had devastating power in both hands, especially that right hand. This aint the amateurs, the fight isn't getting called off after one flurry like it did in the Olympics.

[PowerPuncher]

Lewis early KO, Bowe is the most overrated HW of the last 30 years, has no defense/jab to get out of the way of LEwis's bombs

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Lewis early KO, Bowe is the most overrated HW of the last 30 years, has no defense/jab to get out of the way of LEwis's bombs

Correct.

[crippet]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Correct.

Agreed - I Think Bowe wouldnt have lasted as long as Ruddock and Bowe never ever comments on his chances with Lewis which leads me to believe he concurs





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