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Old 08-15-2010, 12:30 PM   #16
SuzieQ49
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Default Re: What If: JACK DEMPSEY vs. JOE LOUIS

Joe Louis by knockout victory. Without a doubt in my mind.
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Old 08-15-2010, 12:50 PM   #17
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Default Re: What If: JACK DEMPSEY vs. JOE LOUIS

I've always thought that Dempsey was the worst opponent for Louis bar-non - to fast agressive and powerful - and hell bent as well - i think Demps would leave Louis blinking on the floor a la Schmeling in about 4 to 6 rounds - but I suppose every round you're in there with Dempsey you're in danger of being kayoed so it could potentially be any round but Demps all the way in this one
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Old 08-15-2010, 01:15 PM   #18
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Default Re: What If: JACK DEMPSEY vs. JOE LOUIS

Louis is the worst opponent for Dempsey. Dempsey will be outgunned in every aspect.
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Old 08-15-2010, 01:22 PM   #19
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Default Re: What If: JACK DEMPSEY vs. JOE LOUIS

"Former Jack Dempsey trainer Teddy Hayes describes how a Dempsey-Louis encounter would develop. Hayes was the trainer of Dempsey for eight years during the period when the Manassa Mauler pounded Fulton, Willard, Brennan, Carpentier, and Firpo.
Hayes declared, Jan 18, 1936 New York Amsterdam News, "Why Kearns and I would never have thought of matching Dempsey with a boxer. We kept putting him in there with those big, slow bums and Dempsey made us all look good. We didn't want any part of that Tommy Gibbons fight, but gave Jack his way. And what happened? The first time Dempsey met a good boxer he was shown up. You know how Gibbons cuffed him around at Shelby: That was the tip-off on Dempsey." "Dempsey at his best wouldn't last four rounds with Joe Louis", insisted Hayes, "He'd let Dempsey force all the fighting and cut him to ribbons. He'd be stalking Dempsey from the opening bell, backing away, catching Dempsey's shots on his arms and elbows and waiting for the opening to put across that sleep producer."


This was very interesting. Even though I think he has a point, it's a pretty surprising statement from someone you'd think have his loyalaties to Dempsey. Did they have a fallling out or something?
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Old 08-15-2010, 01:27 PM   #20
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Default Re: What If: JACK DEMPSEY vs. JOE LOUIS

Personally, I feel Louis was an evolutionary step ahead of Dempsey. Dempsey was fast, ferocious, powerful and threw hard short punches which made him a scary prospect on the inside - but he could also use a bit wide punches (as most fighters of that time) and that combined with his low guard is bad news against Louis, to say the least.
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Old 08-15-2010, 01:27 PM   #21
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Default Re: What If: JACK DEMPSEY vs. JOE LOUIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
"Former Jack Dempsey trainer Teddy Hayes describes how a Dempsey-Louis encounter would develop. Hayes was the trainer of Dempsey for eight years during the period when the Manassa Mauler pounded Fulton, Willard, Brennan, Carpentier, and Firpo.
Hayes declared, Jan 18, 1936 New York Amsterdam News, "Why Kearns and I would never have thought of matching Dempsey with a boxer. We kept putting him in there with those big, slow bums and Dempsey made us all look good. We didn't want any part of that Tommy Gibbons fight, but gave Jack his way. And what happened? The first time Dempsey met a good boxer he was shown up. You know how Gibbons cuffed him around at Shelby: That was the tip-off on Dempsey." "Dempsey at his best wouldn't last four rounds with Joe Louis", insisted Hayes, "He'd let Dempsey force all the fighting and cut him to ribbons. He'd be stalking Dempsey from the opening bell, backing away, catching Dempsey's shots on his arms and elbows and waiting for the opening to put across that sleep producer."


This was very interesting. Even though I think he has a point, it's a pretty surprising statement from someone you'd think have his loyalaties to Dempsey. Did they have a fallling out or something?
I believe so but there is some truth to it. Dempsey's opponents weren't all "big slow bums" but they weren't explosive punchers like Louis either, and Louis's masterful display against Baer shows how he could handle an ultra-aggressive opponent, though Baer and Dempsey were different. Louis's short counter-punches could be devastating against an aggressive opponent.

As short a punch as you're ever going to see:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUl656wKPX0[/ame]

3:10

Louis could be every bit as dangerous in the early rounds as Dempsey, although it also has to be pointed out that he was prone to getting caught "cold".
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Old 08-15-2010, 01:42 PM   #22
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Default Re: What If: JACK DEMPSEY vs. JOE LOUIS

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
The term " Hype " came from Igoe. Don't take what he wrote too seriously.

I think Dempsey vs. Louis could go either way. I like Dempsey early, and Louis late. Though I do think Dempsey superior agility, and fast straiting ways would eventually spell doom for Louis, who was slower, not always a fast starter, and was there to be hit.
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I think Dempsey vs. Louis could go either way.
I don't. Louis is clearly the better, more proven fighter.

Quote:
I like Dempsey early, and Louis late.
Why Louis late? Louis could easily blast Dempsey away early. Louis was a very fast starter. Scored 5 knockouts in the first round in world championship fights, including 2 one round kayos over hall of famers. That's far more impressive than dempsey scoring first round knockouts over big oaf hill billies.

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Though I do think Dempsey superior agility, and fast straiting ways would eventually spell doom for Louis
1. Disagree. While dempsey had very fast feet, he was not the billy conn or walcott type to stick and move and box louis. Dempsey will be coming straight into Louis target range throughout the fight. Louis superior punching abilities(Better combinations, faster hands, more accurate, less wild, better late round power) spells doom for Jack. Louis will also be sticking that awesome left jab in Dempsey's face slowly closing his eye as jack tries to work inside.

2. Dempsey was not a faster starter than Louis. Both were very fast starters.

Quote:
who was slower
Louis had faster hands, which is more important in this type of fight. Louis doesn't need fast feet to find dempsey, dempsey will be right in front of him the whole fight. I don't think any man can walk into a peak joe louis and come out alive. I can see Dempsey catching Louis early with a big hook and putting him on the floor, but Louis resiliency will see him to his feet...and the surprise period will be over.
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Old 08-15-2010, 01:43 PM   #23
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Default Re: What If: JACK DEMPSEY vs. JOE LOUIS

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Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
Personally, I feel Louis was an evolutionary step ahead of Dempsey. Dempsey was fast, ferocious, powerful and threw hard short punches which made him a scary prospect on the inside - but he could also use a bit wide punches (as most fighters of that time) and that combined with his low guard is bad news against Louis, to say the least.
Agreed. How is jack going to get away with keeping that left hand down by his waist? He will be begging Louis to come over the top with a huge right hand(Louis' best punch).
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Old 08-15-2010, 01:44 PM   #24
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Default Re: What If: JACK DEMPSEY vs. JOE LOUIS

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Louis is the worst opponent for Dempsey. Dempsey will be outgunned in every aspect.
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Old 08-15-2010, 01:53 PM   #25
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Default Re: What If: JACK DEMPSEY vs. JOE LOUIS

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Originally Posted by robert ungurean View Post

I think the only thing that's funny is your extreme overpraise of Dempsey, and very questionable high ranking of him. If we were talking purely accomplishments, Louis would blow dempsey so far out of the water it isn't even worth discussing. It's crazy how many people give Dempsey a free pass for not fighting the far and away # 1 and # 2 best contenders of his era.

I stand by my statement Dempsey is made for Louis. Anyone who comes into Joe Louis, into his target range...their chances go down dramatically. The way to beat Louis is to stick and move...box on the outside, in and out with tricky footwork(Ali). You cannot beat Joe Louis at his own game. Louis was the king of all punchers. His two fisted power, combination punching, handspeed, accuracy, late power all rate at the very top.

Say goodnight Jack
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Old 08-15-2010, 01:58 PM   #26
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Default Re: What If: JACK DEMPSEY vs. JOE LOUIS

[quote=TheGreatA;7539607]and Louis's masterful display against Baer shows how he could handle an ultra-aggressive opponent,quote]

Louis was indeed masterful in that fight but I strongly disagree that this fight shows how he would handle an ultra aggressive opponent?? Max Baer was not ultra aggressive in this fightat all - he was scared to death in this fight - apart from that few seconds where he cut loose and tried to nail Louis - the other 3 and a half rounds he was scared to death - Demps was on Baer case about it in the corner - no this is not a good example of a fight where Louis dealt with an 'ultra aggressive' fighter - for the most part in this one Max Baer was a stand up straight boxer which is probably why he got picked apart and smashed down
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Old 08-15-2010, 02:06 PM   #27
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Default Re: What If: JACK DEMPSEY vs. JOE LOUIS

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apart from that few seconds where he cut loose and tried to nail Louis
Yes and did you see what happened? Louis took a some mega flush baer bombs and proceeded to back Baer up, outclass him with a deadly 6 punch combination...then walked backed to his corner with a spring in his legs...like nothing could stop him. Louis took apart Max Baer who was a 6'3 210lb ATG puncher.

Whom did Dempsey ever beat who remotely compared to Joe Louis as a puncher and jabber?
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Old 08-15-2010, 02:08 PM   #28
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Default Re: What If: JACK DEMPSEY vs. JOE LOUIS

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Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose View Post

Louis was indeed masterful in that fight but I strongly disagree that this fight shows how he would handle an ultra aggressive opponent?? Max Baer was not ultra aggressive in this fightat all - he was scared to death in this fight - apart from that few seconds where he cut loose and tried to nail Louis - the other 3 and a half rounds he was scared to death - Demps was on Baer case about it in the corner - no this is not a good example of a fight where Louis dealt with an 'ultra aggressive' fighter - for the most part in this one Max Baer was a stand up straight boxer which is probably why he got picked apart and smashed down
Perhaps not ultra-aggressive, but Baer was in your face most of the time and actively seeked for the knockout while simultaneously leaving himself open for counter punches. Baer had a cast iron chin but was picked apart by Louis. It went down very much like Teddy Hayes claimed Louis vs Dempsey would go down, with Louis picking off Baer's punches and landing all of his own.

Dempsey however does represent a difficult match-up for Louis with his crowding tactics.
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Old 08-15-2010, 02:11 PM   #29
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Default Re: What If: JACK DEMPSEY vs. JOE LOUIS

[quote=SuzieQ49;7539705]I don't. Louis is clearly the better, more proven fighter.

He had a longer career for sure, but looked pretty bad vs the likes of Schmeling, Walcott, Godoy, Charles, and Marciano. And very ordinary vs Tommy Farr.


Quote:
Why Louis late? Louis could easily blast Dempsey away early. Louis was a very fast starter. Scored 5 knockouts in the first round in world championship fights, including 2 one round kayos over hall of famers. That's far more impressive than dempsey scoring first round knockouts over big oaf hill billies.
Louis was not always a fast starter. Vs a bum of the month type of guy, sure. But he also has egg on his face vs slobs who floored him and hurt him in Galento.


Quote:
1. Disagree. While dempsey had very fast feet, he was not the billy conn or walcott type to stick and move and box louis. Dempsey will be coming straight into Louis target range throughout the fight.
Louis had trouble vs. anyone with quick feet. Conn stunned the guy, Dempsey hits 5x as hard. Louis himself said he did not like to be crowded, and needed his space. Dempsey was an attack oriented fighter with quick feet, and good slip and duck type of defense. Va Louis's cement feet, low guard and stick his face out type of stance, he could very well be taken out early. That's why I like Dempsey early, and Louis late. Dempsey tended to cool off toward the mid to late rounds.


Quote:
2. Dempsey was not a faster starter than Louis. Both were very fast starters.
Dempsey was a faster starter than Louis was in general.

Quote:
Louis had faster hands, which is more important in this type of fight. Louis doesn't need fast feet to find dempsey, dempsey will be right in front of him the whole fight. I don't think any man can walk into a peak joe louis and come out alive. I can see Dempsey catching Louis early with a big hook and putting him on the floor, but Louis resiliency will see him to his feet...and the surprise period will be over.
Both of them had fast hands. Louis needed his feet set, and you are several underestimating Demspey's;s superior lateral agility in this match up.

You don't think any man can walk into a peak Louis and come out alive? Odd statement form a guy who did not have the best chin or defense. A sloppy fighter like Glaneto floored and almost upset Louis by coming right at him.
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Old 08-15-2010, 02:13 PM   #30
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Default Re: What If: JACK DEMPSEY vs. JOE LOUIS

Galento didn't almost upset anybody to be honest. He was slaughtered, aside from the two left hooks he landed, neither of which seriously hurt Louis but more so embarrassed him.
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