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View Poll Results: Mayweather vs. Pacquiao is now meaningless?
Agree 356 47.98%
Disagree 386 52.02%
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:07 PM   #9436
lester proctor
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Default Re: Pacquiao is held to a higher standard.

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Originally Posted by mancat View Post
ok. so, why bdo you think pac could have koed marquez in this fight, but none of the others?
I've no idea whether he could have KOed him in the 4th, but it was less outlandish than JMM KOing him, and look what happened.
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:07 PM   #9437
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Default Re: Pacquiao is held to a higher standard.

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Originally Posted by MMAist View Post
Truth really is hard to swallow when you have a hidden agenda.

18k of posts and you reply like this? Man, you're ****ed.
With your 83 posts and your hatchet job on JMM, you seemed hardly worth the effort of any kind of serious response.

But since you appear to crave an antidote to your delusional pish, I'll post a brief extract from another poster's assessment of the dude in placing him at #85 all time, all weight classes. And as that poster said, he's not done yet.


#85 Juan Manuel Marquez (55-6-1)

So what did Juan Manuel do to distinguish himself from Barrera and Morales? He may have spent several years chasing both but failed to get Morales into the ring with him at all, and his eventual win over Barrera, although clear, is hardly a victory over a fighter in his pomp.

The answer, of course, is Manny Pacquiao.

In many ways, Morales did the more impressive work by getting a clean win over the Filipino at or near his best, but the career arch of Juan Manuel is more complex. Squint just a little when you look at his stats and you will see a fighter with arguably only one legitimate loss, to the P4P #1 and much bigger Floyd Mayweather. The early career loss to Freddy Norwood is eminently arguable (I have it to Marquez) and the loss to Chris John has always perplexed me. Before anyone cared, it was seen as a clean win for John. As Marquez became more and more crucial to the perception of Manny Pacquiao’s legacy, it became a robbery. Then, when some kindly soul uploaded the full fight to YouTube, it became fashionable to deem it a clean win again. For me, Marquez won the fight top to tail and I can never find more than four rounds for John, so I have the Mexican winning out of sight despite the two legitimate deductions for low blows.

Another myth concerning this fight is that it is the fight that “changed Marquez’s style,” that he somehow became more aggressive behind this injustice (if injustice it was). That too is inaccurate. Marquez fought very aggressively in this very match, it was in part the reason he dominated. Nevertheless it is true that at some point between his 2004 draw with Manny Pacquiao and his 2006 loss to Chris John, Marquez seemed to accept that he was going to be hit, quite a lot. A classic counterpuncher with an instinctive understanding of range this attribute never translated on defense; Marquez is leaky. On offense, he is amongst the best of his generation, arguably the best, certainly he is the most fluid combination puncher of the last decade and this has resulted in a surprising 40 stoppages in 55 victories—all the way up to welterweight.

Perhaps this is the reason Marquez ranks higher than Barrera and Morales. He’s traveled all the way to welterweight and in one of the most stunning stoppages in recent boxing history he knocked Manny Pacquiao unconscious with a single punch. Their rivalry has been a great one and in many ways it does define Marquez despite two razor thin decision losses. For the record, I don’t feel that Pacquiao has beaten Marquez once, my cards read 3-1-0 in the Juan Manuel’s favor. The judges, of course, had a better view than I did and in the end their decision must be respected, but either way, it is Marquez that has shaken more stardust from Pacquiao than any other fighter. Taken in tandem with his longevity, devastating the #2 pound-for-pound fighter in the world nearly twenty years after his professional debut, and you can see the daylight creeping in between him and his Mexican brethren.

And he’s not done yet.
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:11 PM   #9438
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Default Re: Pacquiao is held to a higher standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuchulain View Post
With your 83 posts and your hatchet job on JMM, you seemed hardly worth the effort of any kind of serious response.

But since you appear to crave an antidote to your delusional pish, I'll post a brief extract from another poster's assessment of the dude in placing him at #85 all time, all weight classes. And as that poster said, he's not done yet.


#85 Juan Manuel Marquez (55-6-1)

So what did Juan Manuel do to distinguish himself from Barrera and Morales? He may have spent several years chasing both but failed to get Morales into the ring with him at all, and his eventual win over Barrera, although clear, is hardly a victory over a fighter in his pomp.

The answer, of course, is Manny Pacquiao.

In many ways, Morales did the more impressive work by getting a clean win over the Filipino at or near his best, but the career arch of Juan Manuel is more complex. Squint just a little when you look at his stats and you will see a fighter with arguably only one legitimate loss, to the P4P #1 and much bigger Floyd Mayweather. The early career loss to Freddy Norwood is eminently arguable (I have it to Marquez) and the loss to Chris John has always perplexed me. Before anyone cared, it was seen as a clean win for John. As Marquez became more and more crucial to the perception of Manny Pacquiao’s legacy, it became a robbery. Then, when some kindly soul uploaded the full fight to YouTube, it became fashionable to deem it a clean win again. For me, Marquez won the fight top to tail and I can never find more than four rounds for John, so I have the Mexican winning out of sight despite the two legitimate deductions for low blows.

Another myth concerning this fight is that it is the fight that “changed Marquez’s style,” that he somehow became more aggressive behind this injustice (if injustice it was). That too is inaccurate. Marquez fought very aggressively in this very match, it was in part the reason he dominated. Nevertheless it is true that at some point between his 2004 draw with Manny Pacquiao and his 2006 loss to Chris John, Marquez seemed to accept that he was going to be hit, quite a lot. A classic counterpuncher with an instinctive understanding of range this attribute never translated on defense; Marquez is leaky. On offense, he is amongst the best of his generation, arguably the best, certainly he is the most fluid combination puncher of the last decade and this has resulted in a surprising 40 stoppages in 55 victories—all the way up to welterweight.

Perhaps this is the reason Marquez ranks higher than Barrera and Morales. He’s traveled all the way to welterweight and in one of the most stunning stoppages in recent boxing history he knocked Manny Pacquiao unconscious with a single punch. Their rivalry has been a great one and in many ways it does define Marquez despite two razor thin decision losses. For the record, I don’t feel that Pacquiao has beaten Marquez once, my cards read 3-1-0 in the Juan Manuel’s favor. The judges, of course, had a better view than I did and in the end their decision must be respected, but either way, it is Marquez that has shaken more stardust from Pacquiao than any other fighter. Taken in tandem with his longevity, devastating the #2 pound-for-pound fighter in the world nearly twenty years after his professional debut, and you can see the daylight creeping in between him and his Mexican brethren.

And he’s not done yet.
What are JMM's top 3 wins, Pac excluded?
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:14 PM   #9439
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Default Re: Pacquiao is held to a higher standard.

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Originally Posted by MMAist View Post
And about JMM..

This guy hasn't beaten anyone worth of mention before losing to Norwood. Got his first world title by beating Gainer who barely beat Leon. That fight was so close it could have went either way, I scored it a draw by the way. Then fought Pacquioa and luckily escaped with a draw. Seriously, how can anyone score that fight 115-110 in favor of Marquez? Ducked Pacquioa after. Lost to John. Won over Barrera, when I thought he lost. Lost to Pacquioa again. Both guys went different paths. Looked boring in the first 10 rounds against a way past prime Casamayor. Won over feather-fisted Diaz who is coming off a loss against Campbell and a split-decision win against Katsidis who just lost to Casamayor by a stoppage. And Diaz gave him fits. Lost to Mayweather by a shut-out. Then fought Diaz again who is coming of a loss against Malignaggi. Fought Katsidis who already lost to his victims. Fought an unknown Likar Ramos. And lost to Pacquioa again. The only version of Pacquioa he has beaten is the faded one who lost to Bradley. And it was a fluke. He got lucky Pacquioa got tripped and free fall into his punch. It could have been anybody. And he's fighting Bradley next when we all know that Bradley himself is coming off two controversial wins.

You're lucky punch BS was already disproved, log off.
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:20 PM   #9440
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Default Re: Pacquiao is held to a higher standard.

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Originally Posted by lester proctor View Post
What are JMM's top 3 wins, Pac excluded?
Barrera - you make a strong case for a Barrera win.

Diaz - After barely winning over Katsidis and losing to Campbell.

Katsidiz - after two of his latest victims are donw with him.

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Old 05-07-2013, 12:23 PM   #9441
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Default Re: Pacquiao is held to a higher standard.

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Originally Posted by Bogotazo View Post
You're lucky punch BS was already disproved, log off.
Disprove my ass Homotazo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by this_and_that View Post
The counter punch wasn't lucky.
He landed the same punch in the same fight in round 5.
And Pac took it like the granite chinned warrior that he is.

What were "lucky" about the one that hit Pac in round 6 were:
1. JMM's face was getting bloodied bad. I'm confident a TKO will be handed in favor of Pac in the next round.
2. There was 1 second remaining in the round.
3. Pac lost his balance and was on nothing but air when the counter hit. It doesn't take rocket science to understand that this amplified the punch from JMM-power level to Tyson-power level.

It's like everything was stacked up against JMM and I'm pretty sure even the worst nuthugger of JMM in ESB was thinking Pac was getting the upper hand then BAM!
The stars suddenly aligned for JMM and all revenge for Pac-JMM 3 was handed to him in a silver platter.

Just in case you missed it, THAT was lucky.

JMM wasn't practicing that counter with his opponents' feet on the air and lunging forward.
He wasn't practicing that counter with a bloodied nose and china'd eyes and basically getting beaten the crap out of him by his sparring partner.
Not even once did he practice that punch on the last few seconds of his sparring rounds.

And that made his victory all the more sweeter.
Deal with it.
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:31 PM   #9442
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Default Re: Pacquiao is held to a higher standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuchulain View Post
With your 83 posts and your hatchet job on JMM, you seemed hardly worth the effort of any kind of serious response.

But since you appear to crave an antidote to your delusional pish, I'll post a brief extract from another poster's assessment of the dude in placing him at #85 all time, all weight classes. And as that poster said, he's not done yet.


#85 Juan Manuel Marquez (55-6-1)

So what did Juan Manuel do to distinguish himself from Barrera and Morales? He may have spent several years chasing both but failed to get Morales into the ring with him at all, and his eventual win over Barrera, although clear, is hardly a victory over a fighter in his pomp.

The answer, of course, is Manny Pacquiao.

In many ways, Morales did the more impressive work by getting a clean win over the Filipino at or near his best, but the career arch of Juan Manuel is more complex. Squint just a little when you look at his stats and you will see a fighter with arguably only one legitimate loss, to the P4P #1 and much bigger Floyd Mayweather. The early career loss to Freddy Norwood is eminently arguable (I have it to Marquez) and the loss to Chris John has always perplexed me. Before anyone cared, it was seen as a clean win for John. As Marquez became more and more crucial to the perception of Manny Pacquiao’s legacy, it became a robbery. Then, when some kindly soul uploaded the full fight to YouTube, it became fashionable to deem it a clean win again. For me, Marquez won the fight top to tail and I can never find more than four rounds for John, so I have the Mexican winning out of sight despite the two legitimate deductions for low blows.

Another myth concerning this fight is that it is the fight that “changed Marquez’s style,” that he somehow became more aggressive behind this injustice (if injustice it was). That too is inaccurate. Marquez fought very aggressively in this very match, it was in part the reason he dominated. Nevertheless it is true that at some point between his 2004 draw with Manny Pacquiao and his 2006 loss to Chris John, Marquez seemed to accept that he was going to be hit, quite a lot. A classic counterpuncher with an instinctive understanding of range this attribute never translated on defense; Marquez is leaky. On offense, he is amongst the best of his generation, arguably the best, certainly he is the most fluid combination puncher of the last decade and this has resulted in a surprising 40 stoppages in 55 victories—all the way up to welterweight.

Perhaps this is the reason Marquez ranks higher than Barrera and Morales. He’s traveled all the way to welterweight and in one of the most stunning stoppages in recent boxing history he knocked Manny Pacquiao unconscious with a single punch. Their rivalry has been a great one and in many ways it does define Marquez despite two razor thin decision losses. For the record, I don’t feel that Pacquiao has beaten Marquez once, my cards read 3-1-0 in the Juan Manuel’s favor. The judges, of course, had a better view than I did and in the end their decision must be respected, but either way, it is Marquez that has shaken more stardust from Pacquiao than any other fighter. Taken in tandem with his longevity, devastating the #2 pound-for-pound fighter in the world nearly twenty years after his professional debut, and you can see the daylight creeping in between him and his Mexican brethren.

And he’s not done yet.
John beat him and if he really thought he won, he should have asked for a rematch, but he did not. Not only did he lose to John, he also lose to Norwood. Got away with a draw against Pac when one judge scored it 115-110 for Marquez despite him down 3 times in the first round.

FOught fighters off of controversial wins or losses. While both Morales and Barrera fought the best out there.

Morales > Marquez > Barrera

Deal with it.
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:37 PM   #9443
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Default Re: Pacquiao is held to a higher standard.

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Originally Posted by MMAist View Post
Had Pac not tripped, he'd take the punch and won't fall down and would have won the round also. And what makes you think that bad cut would let JMM go on for 1 or 2 full rounds with Pacquioa?

Look at Pacquioa's face on the end of their 2nd encounter and compare it to his face on the 3rd and the 4th. Now look at JMM's face on their first meeting and compare it to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th.
Well, this is a common pac fan logic. look at the face?

I know from history that Marquez has gottten hurt worse by Pac and continued. I also know, for a fact, that Pac got Koed in the 4th fight. I also know, factually, that Marquez got his first knock down against Pac in the 3rd round. So, my logic is that if Marquez had not knocked Pac out in the 6th he would have knocked him out in the 7th or 8th. Unfortunately, there is no way we can ever know, or way can prove it. Because Pac got KTFO in the 6th.
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:50 PM   #9444
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Default Re: Pacquiao is held to a higher standard.

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Well, this is a common pac fan logic. look at the face?

I know from history that Marquez has gottten hurt worse by Pac and continued. I also know, for a fact, that Pac got Koed in the 4th fight. I also know, factually, that Marquez got his first knock down against Pac in the 3rd round. So, my logic is that if Marquez had not knocked Pac out in the 6th he would have knocked him out in the 7th or 8th. Unfortunately, there is no way we can ever know, or way can prove it. Because Pac got KTFO in the 6th.
The face argument tells it all. Look at Pacquioa's face at the end of their 2nd meeting. JMM put a beating on it too. But on the third and the fourth? Just a one sided beating. He's just lucky Pacquioa fell on his punch face first. FLUKE
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:53 PM   #9445
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Default Re: Pacquiao is held to a higher standard.

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Originally Posted by MMAist View Post
John beat him and if he really thought he won, he should have asked for a rematch, but he did not. Not only did he lose to John, he also lose to Norwood. Got away with a draw against Pac when one judge scored it 115-110 for Marquez despite him down 3 times in the first round.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah,

Deal with it.
Four division champion spanning five weight divisions.

Currently:

Ring's #2 Welter wt.
TBR's #2 Welter wt

Ring's #3 p4p
TBR's #3 p4p



Deal with it, is what I think you said.
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:09 PM   #9446
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Default Re: Pacquiao is held to a higher standard.

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Originally Posted by cuchulain View Post
Four division champion spanning five weight divisions.

Currently:

Ring's #2 Welter wt.
TBR's #2 Welter wt

Ring's #3 p4p
TBR's #3 p4p



Deal with it, is what I think you said.
4 division champ Morales needed no FLUKE.
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:11 PM   #9447
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Default Re: Pacquiao is held to a higher standard.

Don't understand why people can't enjoy both fighters?

Both are legends of our sport, and some of the hatred spewed one or the other way on here screams absurdity. Keyboard warriors who never put a foot in the gym calling Pacquiao a bum or Mayweather a scared ***** etc.

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Old 05-07-2013, 01:14 PM   #9448
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Default Re: Pacquiao is held to a higher standard.

He's held to the same standers that any boxer with his talents/skills/abillities are held to. It's just when you hold him to those standers his record pales in comparsion to most if not all.
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:21 PM   #9449
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Default Re: Pacquiao is held to a higher standard.

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Originally Posted by MMAist View Post
Pac would destroy Castillo, easy. Pac even fought a bigger and stronger version of Castillo named Margarito and will fight a young and hungry version named Rios.
Your posting pass for this thread has hereby been revoked.
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:39 PM   #9450
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gtfo. Nobody wanted Pacquiao to fight Sergio Martinez at 154 or accusing him of ducking a 172 pound fighter
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