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Old 10-30-2007, 10:40 AM   #31
mr. magoo
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

Hey, if we're going to make the ascertion that Ray Leonard was still near top form at age 34 against Norris and after only fighting 5 times in 9 years, then why can't we say that Norris at age 30 was at his peak against Keith Mullings?
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Old 10-30-2007, 11:20 AM   #32
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Hey, if we're going to make the ascertion that Ray Leonard was still near top form at age 34 against Norris and after only fighting 5 times in 9 years, then why can't we say that Norris at age 30 was at his peak against Keith Mullings?
Rooster would find some way of working around that one.

Leonard hadn't made 154lbs for 7 years prior to fighting Norris. 6lbs isn't an isssue to your average "keep fit" man in street, but to a professional boxer its makes a difference.
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Old 10-30-2007, 11:27 AM   #33
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

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Originally Posted by Robbi
Rooster would find some way of working around that one.

Leonard hadn't made 154lbs for 7 years prior to fighting Norris. 6lbs isn't an isssue to your average "keep fit" man in street, but to a professional boxer its makes a difference.
True, he'd probably use some contradictory loop hole, and suggest that due to various circumstances, Norris was washed up and at a severe disadvantage in those later fights. Yet he'd still claim that the Duran fight was a clear indication of Sugar's skills being in tact for Terry Norris.

The one thing that you can always count on with broken records, is that they're consistant and repeat the same stuff over and over.
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Old 10-30-2007, 02:57 PM   #34
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

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Originally Posted by young griffo
Don't write off the Rooster just yet Woddy.

He's no stranger to defeat and has a Joe Grim-like capacity for taking punishment yet he keeps presenting himself for further humiliation under a variety of different identities.

He's immune to embarassment,has no class,oozes hypocrisy,and has views that defy belief.And these are his good points.

You can't shame a man who has none so I'm tipping the Rooster will be back bigger and more obnoxious than ever,to lower the tone of this otherwise quality forum.
Rooster is the dumbass who believes Bowe was a top 10 HW right ?
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Old 10-30-2007, 06:43 PM   #35
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Yeah too bad most of those assertions are all biased and filled with hate " the gay one "

Sorry, but anyone who professes that Leonard wasn't a shot fighter on the basis of his performance against Duran, is seriously misled.
That's Manassa's label. He's packing heat.

Again I ask, why was leonard shot? It should be easy to answer if you know but so far, every one here has been hard pressed to give an answer. I've never in my life seen a fighter as mobile as leonard was on that night get labelled as shot.
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Old 10-30-2007, 06:56 PM   #36
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

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Originally Posted by Robbi
Rooster would find some way of working around that one.

Leonard hadn't made 154lbs for 7 years prior to fighting Norris. 6lbs isn't an isssue to your average "keep fit" man in street, but to a professional boxer its makes a difference.
This has to be the latest excuse of an inexplicable loss. Answer me this: did Leonard challenge Norris or did Norris challenge leonard?

If Leonard challenged Norris, and he did, then why would he agree to fight him at a weight he knew that would hurt his performance??
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Old 10-30-2007, 07:24 PM   #37
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

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Originally Posted by redrooster
If Leonard challenged Norris, and he did, then why would he agree to fight him at a weight he knew that would hurt his performance??
Ever heard of taking a risk?. Leonard obviously never knew it would hurt his performance.
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Old 10-30-2007, 07:28 PM   #38
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

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Originally Posted by Woddy
He claimed that Ray Leonard was in his prime against Terry Norris
Love or loathe Leonard, that statement is ridiculous and probably shows that whoever made it has 'lost the plot' where Leonard is concerned.
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Old 10-30-2007, 07:29 PM   #39
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

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Originally Posted by Robbi
Ever heard of taking a risk?. Leonard obviously never knew it would hurt his performance.
There's no way I'm buying that! Leonard always knew what he was getting into when it came to matchmaking.
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Old 10-30-2007, 07:41 PM   #40
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

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There's no way I'm buying that! Leonard always knew what he was getting into when it came to matchmaking.
Leonard probably knew he could make 154lbs. But making the weight and performing well once your in the ring are two different matters.

Nobody will convince you. Deep down you know Leonard was past his prime, yet your dislike for him gets the better of your feelings to tell the truth.
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Old 10-30-2007, 07:54 PM   #41
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

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Originally Posted by GazOC
Love or loathe Leonard, that statement is ridiculous and probably shows that whoever made it has 'lost the plot' where Leonard is concerned.
Woddy's a liar! I'm glad that he's left classic forum out of embarrassment. Poor kid found out the hard way that he was overmatched with that Dokes-Holyfield garbage which by the way told me in these exact words: "the Dokes of the Holyfield fight was as good or better than the Dokes from the early 1980's".

What I said was that Leonard wasn't shot which he wasn't. Norris was so good that night, he was like an early proto-type of Roy Jones Jr. and Ray just couldn't compete. Ray Leonard has never faced an opponent with speed like Norris who had the defense going for him, with the mental toughness to fight back when struck clean. Someone who disguises the pain and fights back harder like a Marciano or a Marvin Hagler.

Show me one fight in which Leonard faced a trigger fisted fighter like Norris who had ali these attributes. In the Hearns fight, he had to wait until the weight problems took effect on Tommy before finally landing one of his haymakers. Up till then, all he showed was that he couldn't handle a guy on the move who used a basic stick and move strategy.

And please don't mention Wilfred Benitez.
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Old 10-30-2007, 08:38 PM   #42
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Woddy's a liar! I'm glad that he's left classic forum out of embarrassment. Poor kid found out the hard way that he was overmatched with that Dokes-Holyfield garbage which by the way told me in these exact words: "the Dokes of the Holyfield fight was as good or better than the Dokes from the early 1980's".
I'm not a liar, nor have I ever left and nor do I feel as though I lost any debate. None of Dokes's performances of the early 80's reflected that he was ever better than Evander Holyfield at any point in Holy's career. We went through this, yet you keep at it, like you're trying to save face and I don't know why. The fact is, he was a totally different fighter in his first career. Dokes was mainly a boxer who relied on hand speed and boxing ability, but later discovered that he was better suited as a puncher. His fights with Cobb, Weaver, ocasio and Coetzee showed that the effects of using drugs, working with poor managment and utilizing a style that wasn't totally fitting for him limited his success. You're making assumptions purely on the basis that just because he was a few years younger, that he simply had to have been better, and this isn't always the case with certain fighters. From 1985-1989, Dokes was working with a more solid management team, and was drug free. He was fighting extremely active, and applying techniques that led to more knockouts, and less iffy decisions. When he fought Holyfield he had recently turned 30, therfore was still at a reasonable age, and likely more motivated than at any other time in his career. Most people will attest to this, but needless to say, you'll still come back with the same nonsense like you do time and time again.
Quote:

What I said was that Leonard wasn't shot which he wasn't. Norris was so good that night, he was like an early proto-type of Roy Jones Jr. and Ray just couldn't compete. Ray Leonard has never faced an opponent with speed like Norris who had the defense going for him, with the mental toughness to fight back when struck clean. Someone who disguises the pain and fights back harder like a Marciano or a Marvin Hagler.
Norris was certainly a good fighter, but thats not my argument. I just don't see how you can possibly say that Leonard wasn't shot, or at least well past his best if that better suits you. This was a man who was coming off a 14 month layoff, and had only fought 5 times in a 9 year period, plus was near the age of 35. What's more, he hadn't fought at Jr. Middleweight since probably 1985, and looked horrible against Thomas Hearns, who was also past his prime, as was Duran at age 37. You asked me to tell you what differences I saw in Leonard as opposed to his previous meetings with other fighters. Okay, well he was definately slower, and less tenacious, and I don't attribute this soley to the fact that Norris just looked spectacular. Leonard's reflexes had dulled noticeably, and when he got in trouble or was able to land a few on Norris, didn't follow up with his pattented fluries that he had used so many times before. He was also a man who had gone into the championship rounds on numerous occasions with great fighters, and this time looked horribly exhausted by about the 9th or 10th round. The enthusiasm was gone, and I'm not even sure that his power was as effective by this point either. There is nothing in that fight which even remotely suggests that Leonard was anything but shot.

Quote:
Show me one fight in which Leonard faced a trigger fisted fighter like Norris who had ali these attributes
.

You don't think that Leonard beat fighters of a greater calibur than Norris? Oh this keeps getting better and better. I think most people would rank Hagler, Duran, Hearns and Benitez well above Norris, and all of those guys had more talent and better skill than Norris. If You're going to even try and claim that Norris was a better boxer/puncher than Hearns, then I think you better start watching fights and spending less time on boxrec.



Quote:
In the Hearns fight, he had to wait until the weight problems took effect on Tommy before finally landing one of his haymakers.
if you're talking about the rematch, then don't make concessions for Hearns unless you're willing to do the same for Leonard. Sugar was not a natural middleweight either, and nor was he in his prime, yet he still gave it his best effort, despite Hearns getting the better of him.


Quote:
And please don't mention Wilfred Benitez.
Of course not, why mention great fighters in the primes of their careers who Leonard beat? Better off mentioning the shot versions of Donald Curry and John Mugabi right?

Dude seriously, if you want to make a case for Norris being a good fighter then fine. I won't despute that, but for Christ's sake stop trying to take this two prong approach in building up his resume by saying that he beat a servicable Leonard. Nothing personal but the argument is just plain dumb. To a lesser extent, its almost, but not quite as bad as claiming that Berbick beat a prime
Ali or Marciano beat a prime Louis, and don't try to recant by asking me to once again point out why I feel that Leonard was shot. His day was clearly over, and I think most people would have picked the Sugar of 7 or 8 years earlier to beat Norris, which is a reasonable claim.
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Old 10-30-2007, 11:13 PM   #43
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

How can the Leonard-Duran fight be used to prove Leonard wasn't shot without giving Leonard credit for beating Duran in that fight?
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Old 10-31-2007, 01:02 AM   #44
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woddy
]

I'm not a liar, nor have I ever left and nor do I feel as though I lost any debate. None of Dokes's performances of the early 80's reflected that he was ever better than Evander Holyfield at any point in Holy's career. We went through this, yet you keep at it, like you're trying to save face and I don't know why. The fact is, he was a totally different fighter in his first career. Dokes was mainly a boxer who relied on hand speed and boxing ability, but later discovered that he was better suited as a puncher. His fights with Cobb, Weaver, ocasio and Coetzee showed that the effects of using drugs, working with poor managment and utilizing a style that wasn't totally fitting for him limited his success. You're making assumptions purely on the basis that just because he was a few years younger, that he simply had to have been better, and this isn't always the case with certain fighters. From 1985-1989, Dokes was working with a more solid management team, and was drug free. He was fighting extremely active, and applying techniques that led to more knockouts, and less iffy decisions. When he fought Holyfield he had recently turned 30, therfore was still at a reasonable age, and likely more motivated than at any other time in his career. Most people will attest to this, but needless to say, you'll still come back with the same nonsense like you do time and time again.
Ask yourself this question: Was Dokes on the way up in the rankings in 1989?

See how ridiculous you look?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woddy
Norris was certainly a good fighter, but thats not my argument. I just don't see how you can possibly say that Leonard wasn't shot, or at least well past his best if that better suits you. This was a man who was coming off a 14 month layoff, and had only fought 5 times in a 9 year period, plus was near the age of 35. What's more, he hadn't fought at Jr. Middleweight since probably 1985, and looked horrible against Thomas Hearns, who was also past his prime, as was Duran at age 37. You asked me to tell you what differences I saw in Leonard as opposed to his previous meetings with other fighters. Okay, well he was definately slower, and less tenacious, and I don't attribute this soley to the fact that Norris just looked spectacular. Leonard's reflexes had dulled noticeably, and when he got in trouble or was able to land a few on Norris, didn't follow up with his pattented fluries that he had used so many times before. He was also a man who had gone into the championship rounds on numerous occasions with great fighters, and this time looked horribly exhausted by about the 9th or 10th round. The enthusiasm was gone, and I'm not even sure that his power was as effective by this point either. There is nothing in that fight which even remotely suggests that Leonard was anything but shot.

Less tenacious than what, the Kalule fight where he still struggled 9 rounds with a mediocre and anonymous champion??

Less tenacious than in his first fight with Hearns when his own trainer told him to stop picking his nose and jump on the other guy otherwise he was headed for points loss. Can you deny he lost most of the rounds in that fight? We all know it so why keep up this act that he was dominating everyone? Leonard was never awesome! Get your story straight.

Again I call you liar. leonard was blazing fast in the Hagler fight. Hagler was shot. That's why the fight was postponed going back to 1982. Leonard was scared to fight him but not afraid to fight an old man. Different story though when he Norris in front of him. Did you see the way he froze before the righteous fury of a young Norris. Norris was absolutely masterful! That's why Norris is shown in my avatar.

Winners only. No losers!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woddy
You don't think that Leonard beat fighters of a greater calibur than Norris? Oh this keeps getting better and better. I think most people would rank Hagler, Duran, Hearns and Benitez well above Norris, and all of those guys had more talent and better skill than Norris. If You're going to even try and claim that Norris was a better boxer/puncher than Hearns, then I think you better start watching fights and spending less time on boxrec.
I don't give a shit who he beat. He still hadn't faced anyone like Norris. In 1987, Hagler was great in name alone but wasn't a threat anymore. People like you put on this act that he wasn't in his last fight, that he lost two of his three titles, and their favorite line "Hagler slowed just a little".

Forget Benitez. He was never a great fighter in my book. I watched him lose those two fights to Curry and Weston. And the way he did nothing to prevent Leonard from taking his title. No balls.

You got to fight him the way Duran did, put the hurt on him, stay in his face and make him miss all night long like in Montreal.

The other way to do is by simply outboxing him the way hearns was doing. It was easy. Norris did it too only he got thru the whole fight unscathed because Terry has the stamina that Tommy lacked and was the complete package. He knew how to tie up a man and didn't block punches with his jaw the way Tommy had. Terry takes them on his gloves the way you're supposed to do. It would take someone with the power of a Julian Jackson to take him out of there. Did Ray possess the power and tenacity of jackson??

To be frank with you, he didn't. Blowing out opponents was Jackson's game. Stealing rounds was Leonard's game but it didn't work with the wrong opponent like Terry who could outhustle Leonard any day of the week.

That's the strategy leonard used on Hagler: wait five years for him to slow down then take the fight and try to steal as many rounds as you can.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Woddy

Dude seriously, if you want to make a case for Norris being a good fighter then fine. I won't despute that, but for Christ's sake stop trying to take this two prong approach in building up his resume by saying that he beat a servicable Leonard. Nothing personal but the argument is just plain dumb. To a lesser extent, its almost, but not quite as bad as claiming that Berbick beat a prime
Ali or Marciano beat a prime Louis, and don't try to recant by asking me to once again point out why I feel that Leonard was shot. His day was clearly over, and I think most people would have picked the Sugar of 7 or 8 years earlier to beat Norris, which is a reasonable claim.
You still haven't proven to me he was shot. In no way does Leonard compare with Ali from the Berbick fight. Ali in his previous fight vs. Holmes had no mobility. Leonard showed all the mobility you'd ever want to see on a fighter, won lopsidedly, and showed no shortage of confidence. You think I'm going to take your word that Leonard was shot because you want me to beileve he was?? Just ignore the evidence on video?

You see how it is. You got no case.

You got to have a track record of losing. Losing the way Ali was losing to Young. To Norton. To Shavers. To Spinks. To Holmes.

What losing record did Leonard have.

I think I've proven it was really a case that Leonard in his short career, didn't have what it takes to deal with all styles-another reason for his short career.

He was forced to try and steal rounds from fighters or else resort to late round desperation knockouts in case he didn't know what he was doing as in the Hearns fight-and that was in his prime years according to you. But if he couldn't knock out a fighter and he was behind then what??

Then what?

Then this-->Norris W12 Leonard.
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Old 10-31-2007, 01:25 AM   #45
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he isn't an enemy, just really funny
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