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Old 10-31-2007, 08:04 AM   #46
Woddy
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

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=redrooster]Ask yourself this question: Was Dokes on the way up in the rankings in 1989?

See how ridiculous you look?
Uh, as a matter of fact, he was ranked #3 by the WBC, and was actually in line to be one of Tyson's future opponents.

Now who looks ridiculous?

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Less tenacious than what, the Kalule fight where he still struggled 9 rounds with a mediocre and anonymous champion??
I suppose you saw this one as well.

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Less tenacious than in his first fight with Hearns when his own trainer told him to stop picking his nose and jump on the other guy otherwise he was headed for points loss. Can you deny he lost most of the rounds in that fight? We all know it so why keep up this act that he was dominating everyone? Leonard was never awesome! Get your story straight.
Coming back from being behind to beat another undefeated champion who was on his way to being another all time great is not something that a normal fan or historian uses to discredit a great fighter. And if you think that Leonard wasn't great on the basis of that performance, then it is you who needs to get his story strait.

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Again I call you liar. leonard was blazing fast in the Hagler fight. Hagler was shot.
Beg your pardon? Hagler was shot? Leonard and Hagler were right around the same age, and Leonard was returning from a 3 year layoff, due to a retina injury and was moving up in weight to face a very dominant champion who was in fact favoured in that fight.

What about this is a lie?



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I don't give a shit who he beat. He still hadn't faced anyone like Norris. In 1987, Hagler was great in name alone but wasn't a threat anymore. People like you put on this act that he wasn't in his last fight, that he lost two of his three titles, and their favorite line "Hagler slowed just a little".
Oh but of course Leonard had no disadvantages right?

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Forget Benitez. He was never a great fighter in my book. I watched him lose those two fights to Curry and Weston. And the way he did nothing to prevent Leonard from taking his title. No balls.
Utter crap








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You still haven't proven to me he was shot. In no way does Leonard compare with Ali from the Berbick fight. Ali in his previous fight vs. Holmes had no mobility. Leonard showed all the mobility you'd ever want to see on a fighter, won lopsidedly, and showed no shortage of confidence. You think I'm going to take your word that Leonard was shot because you want me to beileve he was?? Just ignore the evidence on video?

You see how it is. You got no case.
Can you say troll?
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Old 10-31-2007, 09:51 AM   #47
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

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Originally Posted by Woddy
Uh, as a matter of fact, he was ranked #3 by the WBC, and was actually in line to be one of Tyson's future opponents.
That's all? #3?. He should have been ranked higher considering that Tyson had cleaned out the division. Bet Holyfield was ranked ahead of him. Who were #2 and 1?


Quote:
Originally Posted by woddy
I suppose you saw this one as well.
Considering the few fights he had, it was hard to miss. The mediocre, and anonymous Kalule. No one knew who the **** he was the way no one knew who was Lalonde. People in the audience were wondering "who is that guy".

And he was slow. Slower than any fighter Ray Leonard faced in his career other than Hagler. Regardless, Leonard didn't dominate him. With that kind of performance, why would he be expected to stand up to Norris?



Quote:
Originally Posted by woddy
Coming back from being behind to beat another undefeated champion who was on his way to being another all time great is not something that a normal fan or historian uses to discredit a great fighter. And if you think that Leonard wasn't great on the basis of that performance, then it is you who needs to get his story strait.
he didn't dominate him. hagler did it better. If he done it like Hagler, you could call him great but he looked ordinary and flat..the way he looked against Kalule. He did better with kalule because kalule was an easy opponent...and had no speed. I'm not trying to discredit him. just giving him proper credit and not overrating him the way you do. Actually, it was Tommy who looked the part of a good boxer and Leonard an inept aggressor which he'd find himself in against future worry Norris.


Quote:
Originally Posted by woddy
Beg your pardon? Hagler was shot? Leonard and Hagler were right around the same age, and Leonard was returning from a 3 year layoff, due to a retina injury and was moving up in weight to face a very dominant champion who was in fact favoured in that fight.
here's where I get everyone on this. But you're a good liar so who knows? You might fool me yet.

Go to round six where both Clancy and Ryan are commenting on Hagler. Tim Ryan: "Sugar Ray was telling me that Hagler had lost a lot of speed and that he was counting on the slowness of Hagler"

Straight from the horse's mouth.

Game over.
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Old 10-31-2007, 09:53 AM   #48
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

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Originally Posted by Woddy
Uh, as a matter of fact, he was ranked #3 by the WBC, and was actually in line to be one of Tyson's future opponents.
That's all? #3?. He should have been ranked higher considering that Tyson had cleaned out the division. Bet Holyfield was ranked ahead of him. Who were #2 and 1?


Quote:
Originally Posted by woddy
I suppose you saw this one as well.
Considering the few fights he had, it was hard to miss. The mediocre, and anonymous Kalule. No one knew who the **** he was the way no one knew who was Lalonde. People in the audience were wondering "who is that guy".

And he was slow. Slower than any fighter Ray Leonard faced in his career other than Hagler. Regardless, Leonard didn't dominate him. With that kind of performance, why would he be expected to stand up to Norris?



Quote:
Originally Posted by woddy
Coming back from being behind to beat another undefeated champion who was on his way to being another all time great is not something that a normal fan or historian uses to discredit a great fighter. And if you think that Leonard wasn't great on the basis of that performance, then it is you who needs to get his story strait.
he didn't dominate him. hagler did it better. If he done it like Hagler, you could call him great but he looked ordinary and flat..the way he looked against Kalule. He did better with kalule because kalule was an easy opponent...and had no speed. I'm not trying to discredit him. just giving him proper credit and not overrating him the way you do. Actually, it was Tommy who looked the part of a good boxer and Leonard an inept aggressor which he'd find himself in against future worry Norris.


Quote:
Originally Posted by woddy
Beg your pardon? Hagler was shot? Leonard and Hagler were right around the same age, and Leonard was returning from a 3 year layoff, due to a retina injury and was moving up in weight to face a very dominant champion who was in fact favoured in that fight.
here's where I get everyone on this. But you're a good liar so who knows, you might fool me yet.

Go to round six where both Clancy and Ryan are commenting on Hagler. Tim Ryan: "Sugar Ray was telling me that Hagler had lost a lot of speed and that he was counting on the slowness of Hagler"

Straight from the horse's mouth.

Game over.
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Old 10-31-2007, 10:22 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by redrooster
That's all? #3?. He should have been ranked higher considering that Tyson had cleaned out the division. Bet Holyfield was ranked ahead of him. Who were #2 and 1?
I'll answer this question, though it was not intended for me. In 1989, Dokes was indeed ranked in the top 3 by most of the governing organizations. Holyfield was not yet rated that high, due to the fact that his only heavyweight wins thus far were against James Tillis and Pinklon Thomas. Upon beating Dokes, he would then face #2 WBC contender, Adilson Rodriguez in June of 89' In the meantime Mike Tyson would dispatch Carl Williams whom the IBF had at #1. Had Dokes somehow managed to get by Holyfield, he likely would have been the next guy to fight Tyson following the Williams fight, and given that this was the same Tyson who lost to Douglas by that point, I'd say just about anything could have happened.



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Considering the few fights he had, it was hard to miss. The mediocre, and anonymous Kalule. No one knew who the **** he was the way no one knew who was Lalonde. People in the audience were wondering "who is that guy".
Actually, Lalonde was a well respected puncher who had really put the hurt on Lightheavyweight champ Leslie Steward. He was Holding a title and a man that some speculated may KO Leonard. He was definately not unknown. As for Ayub Kalule, he was another champion who was unbeaten 36-0, and was viewed as being in the prime of his career. Leonard went to work and stopped him in the 9th or therabouts. Although these fights are not exactly on par with the magnitude of the Hagler or Hearns wins, they were still fairly respectable victories. A world champion, is not your every day run of the mill bum.

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And he was slow. Slower than any fighter Ray Leonard faced in his career other than Hagler. Regardless, Leonard didn't dominate him. With that kind of performance, why would he be expected to stand up to Norris?
If we're gonna sit here and pick apart flat performances that Leonard had, then why don't we look at some of the masterpieces of Norris's career, who by the way had quite a bit more? How about losing to nobodies like Derrick Kelly and Joe Walker? What about getting dusted in only 2 rounds by Julian Jackson and never having the balls to fight him again? How about getting his ass handed to him in only 4 rounds by an aging Simon Brown who was moving up in weight? How about the losses to Luis Santana, Keith Mullings, Dana Rosenblatt or Laurent Boudouani? Terry Norris lost a total of 9 times in his career, 4 coming by way of knockout, most of them against shit, and came before the age of 30, with no excuses such as layoffs or old age to justify them. Leonard lost 3 times in his career, with only one coming by knockout at age 40, one coming by decision at age 34, and one coming by decision to an all time great who he avenged. Two of those losses occured after long periods of inactivity and resulting from old age.

And you want to talk to me about how he looked flat in beating a young undefeated champion?
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Old 10-31-2007, 10:42 AM   #50
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

One more thing Rooster,

If you need final verification that Leonard was shot in 1991, then here it is.

During the early 80's Leonard stood up to the power and boxing abilities of prime fighters in Duran and Hearns for a combined 37 rounds without going down, and overcame them to win. In 1988 and 1989, he was floored twice by hearns and once by Lalonde showing clearly that his legs were failing him and that his ability to avoid big shots was deteriorating. By 1991, these weaknesses were amplified, due to further aging and minimal ring activity. I remember watching that fight on showtime championship boxing, and Ferdie Pacheco saying what a pathedic site Leonard looked like. There's no ****in' way that Terry Norris is dropping a prime Leonard twice, or landing on him nearly as often, and in fact Leonard would be landing shots right up the pike regularly.

Prime leonard beats Norris head to head, and the legacies aren't even close.
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Old 10-31-2007, 11:29 AM   #51
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

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Go to round six where both Clancy and Ryan are commenting on Hagler. Tim Ryan: "Sugar Ray was telling me that Hagler had lost a lot of speed and that he was counting on the slowness of Hagler"

Straight from the horse's mouth.

Game over.
WOW!!!!! what a missile you've launched.

Do ya suppose Hagler could have just as easily turned around and said, that Sugar would be no challenge because he was an old welterweight moving up to face a natural middleweight and hadn't entered the ring in 3 years, not to mention having a cocaine addiction between 1982-1986?

Thats all you have to offer? This is where you get most posters? a heresay comment about Hagler losing speed?
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Old 10-31-2007, 12:05 PM   #52
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[quote=mr. magoo]
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I'll answer this question, though it was not intended for me. In 1989, Dokes was indeed ranked in the top 3 by most of the governing organizations. Holyfield was not yet rated that high, due to the fact that his only heavyweight wins thus far were against James Tillis and Pinklon Thomas. Upon beating Dokes, he would then face #2 WBC contender, Adilson Rodriguez in June of 89' In the meantime Mike Tyson would dispatch Carl Williams whom the IBF had at #1. Had Dokes somehow managed to get by Holyfield, he likely would have been the next guy to fight Tyson following the Williams fight, and given that this was the same Tyson who lost to Douglas by that point, I'd say just about anything could have happened.





Actually, Lalonde was a well respected puncher who had really put the hurt on Lightheavyweight champ Leslie Steward. He was Holding a title and a man that some speculated may KO Leonard. He was definately not unknown. As for Ayub Kalule, he was another champion who was unbeaten 36-0, and was viewed as being in the prime of his career. Leonard went to work and stopped him in the 9th or therabouts. Although these fights are not exactly on par with the magnitude of the Hagler or Hearns wins, they were still fairly respectable victories. A world champion, is not your every day run of the mill bum.



If we're gonna sit here and pick apart flat performances that Leonard had, then why don't we look at some of the masterpieces of Norris's career, who by the way had quite a bit more? How about losing to nobodies like Derrick Kelly and Joe Walker? What about getting dusted in only 2 rounds by Julian Jackson and never having the balls to fight him again? How about getting his ass handed to him in only 4 rounds by an aging Simon Brown who was moving up in weight? How about the losses to Luis Santana, Keith Mullings, Dana Rosenblatt or Laurent Boudouani? Terry Norris lost a total of 9 times in his career, 4 coming by way of knockout, most of them against shit, and came before the age of 30, with no excuses such as layoffs or old age to justify them. Leonard lost 3 times in his career, with only one coming by knockout at age 40, one coming by decision at age 34, and one coming by decision to an all time great who he avenged. Two of those losses occured after long periods of inactivity and resulting from old age.

And you want to talk to me about how he looked flat in beating a young undefeated champion?
Superb posts. This rumprooster has been owned yet again.

P.S. I get credit for pounding him the first time Magoo. Don't try to take credit for the victory.
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Old 10-31-2007, 02:15 PM   #53
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Default Re: The Enemy Of Esb ( Red Rooster ) Has Been Defeated

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
WOW!!!!! what a missile you've launched.

Do ya suppose Hagler could have just as easily turned around and said, that Sugar would be no challenge because he was an old welterweight moving up to face a natural middleweight and hadn't entered the ring in 3 years, not to mention having a cocaine addiction between 1982-1986?

Thats all you have to offer? This is where you get most posters? a heresay comment about Hagler losing speed?
Yeah. This is where I get all the posters on including you. a man confesses he put his career on hold for another man spells cowardice when he repeatedly turned down the same man for five years.

As for the ex-marvelous one, he could have said "why did you wait five years when I was at the end of my career before coming out?"

Holds no water if Ray says "one fight" and keeps fighting. Get the picture or you still want to play dumb with me?
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Old 10-31-2007, 02:32 PM   #54
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One more thing Rooster,

If you need final verification that Leonard was shot in 1991, then here it is.

During the early 80's Leonard stood up to the power and boxing abilities of prime fighters in Duran and Hearns for a combined 37 rounds without going down, and overcame them to win. In 1988 and 1989, he was floored twice by hearns and once by Lalonde showing clearly that his legs were failing him and that his ability to avoid big shots was deteriorating. By 1991, these weaknesses were amplified, due to further aging and minimal ring activity. I remember watching that fight on showtime championship boxing, and Ferdie Pacheco saying what a pathedic site Leonard looked like. There's no ****in' way that Terry Norris is dropping a prime Leonard twice, or landing on him nearly as often, and in fact Leonard would be landing shots right up the pike regularly.

Prime leonard beats Norris head to head, and the legacies aren't even close.
WOW!!!!!!!!!!! What a missle you launched! Are those the same legs that were failing him for 12 rounds in his last fight??

Hey, I don't recall Duran putting Leonard down. What happened to your theory?

Oh I almost forgot. What ability to absorb big shot? The way he was stagerring around in the Geraldo and the Duran fight (1), I wouldn't have known he had any. Supposedly in his prime.

Hell, from your strong opening, I thought you were finally going to be the one to put me in my place. What a waste of time you are.
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Old 10-31-2007, 02:38 PM   #55
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Yeah. This is where I get all the posters on including you. a man confesses he put his career on hold for another man spells cowardice when he repeatedly turned down the same man for five years.
No he didn't confess to that. Just because the guy claimed that he'd have a better chance against Hagler in 1987, is not a confession that he avoided him for 5 years. Ray left the game due to a documented torn retina injury, and during his leave from the sport, was using cocaine and struggling with marital problems. He wasn't just sitting there saying "gee, I can come out any day now, just as soon as I see Hagler getting slow ". That is an absolute obsurd assumption and one you no doubt fabricated yourself. Besides, how was Hagler more disadvantaged than a guy who had never fought at middleweight, who was off for three years, and wasn't much younger? This is a question that you never answered either.

Quote:
As for the ex-marvelous one, he could have said "why did you wait five years when I was at the end of my career before coming out?"
Because unlike yourself, Hagler knew that he wasn't the one who deserved to be labeled as the underdog.


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Get the picture or you still want to play dumb with me?
Not really, I've just about had enough of your "dumb" shit, and personally don't think that you make any sense.
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Old 10-31-2007, 02:45 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by redrooster
WOW!!!!!!!!!!! What a missle you launched! Are those the same legs that were failing him for 12 rounds in his last fight??
You are rather hard of hearing aren't you, or should I say challenged in reading comprehension. I clearly said that Leonard survived the power of a PRIME Duran, and a PRIME Hearns during the EARLY 80's.
None of those guys were prime in the late 80's, hence adding little or no meaning to Leonard's performance against them, when drawing comparisons to the Terry Norris fight. You are about as ****ing stupid as the day is long.


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Oh I almost forgot. What ability to absorb big shot? The way he was stagerring around in the Geraldo and the Duran fight (1), I wouldn't have known he had any. Supposedly in his prime.
Yeah taking shots from Tommy Hearns who at that point had Ko'd 30 of his 32 opponents and Duran who was an all time great slugger. Both hit harder and were better fighters than Norris could ever dream of being.

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Hell, from your strong opening, I thought you were finally going to be the one to put me in my place.
You already have been put in your place asshole.
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Old 10-31-2007, 04:39 PM   #57
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That's some serious can of whoopass Magoo just handed out.
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Old 10-31-2007, 05:18 PM   #58
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That's some serious can of whoopass Magoo just handed out.
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Old 10-31-2007, 06:48 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by mr. magoo


I clearly said that Leonard survived the power of a PRIME Duran, and a PRIME Hearns during the EARLY 80's.
None of those guys were prime in the late 80's, hence adding little or no meaning to Leonard's performance against them, when drawing comparisons to the Terry Norris fight. You are about as ****ing stupid as the day is long.
But he didn't overcome Duran's power to win as you said. He clearly lost that fight just as he lost to Norris. So what's the difference?

Fact is, he lost to a man who had seen better days and still moved up to take his title. You don't see Duran bending over for him like Benitez. And even with a 40% ratio (knockout) at 147 with just 6 fights, had leonard reeling in just the second round. I was really surprised to see Leonard floundering across the ring. Ray said he was "caught cold" but I just think his chin wasn't quite grade A material. Let's not forget Magoo that Duran's effectiveness as a first class puncher was halved at two divisions up his natural weight-135.

Let me remind you Magoo that Leonard was very worried before the fight and actually asked Randy Gordon if he was biting off more than he could chew taking that fight and if Duran hit too hard for him. Obviously, his chin was a concern to him.

And there's no way to excuse him for that Geraldo fight. Geez! Think what Norris would have done to that poor kid. Cutting short a beautiful career.

For your sake, I won't bring up the Howard fight.
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Old 10-31-2007, 07:07 PM   #60
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No he didn't confess to that. Just because the guy claimed that he'd have a better chance against Hagler in 1987, is not a confession that he avoided him for 5 years. Ray left the game due to a documented torn retina injury, and during his leave from the sport, was using cocaine and struggling with marital problems. He wasn't just sitting there saying "gee, I can come out any day now, just as soon as I see Hagler getting slow ". That is an absolute obsurd assumption and one you no doubt fabricated yourself. Besides, how was Hagler more disadvantaged than a guy who had never fought at middleweight, who was off for three years, and wasn't much younger? This is a question that you never answered either.
Yes, technically it was a confession that Ryan revealed in his conversation to Gil Clancy.

Now I would go along with you and give Leonard the benefit of the doubt on two conditions

1) The Howard fight which came about as preparation on account of Leonard's confession to Ring Magazine Mar. 84 that he was coming back for a fight with Hagler on account of Hagler's tentative performance with Duran and the fact that he lasted 15.

2) The other six fights after 1987. A one fight deal with Hagler as a personal ambition which you obviously believe, is one thing but with a club fighter like Lalonde?

I'm not as gullible as you are and that seems to be your biggest problem.
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