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Old 09-12-2010, 06:28 AM   #1
Mendoza
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Default Wlad a bit like Joe Louis in re-matches?

The specutlar TKO of Byrd. The systematic beat down of Brewster. And now the destruction of Peter. Is Wlad even better in re-matches? I think so.
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Old 09-12-2010, 06:43 AM   #2
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Default Re: Wlad a bit like Joe Louis in re-matches?

The would make sense for a fighter like Wlad whose main failing is hesitancy, it would be natural that he would feel less cautious about a style/fighter that he has already seen up close and personal, it takes away some of the mystique.
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Old 09-12-2010, 06:56 AM   #3
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Default Re: Wlad a bit like Joe Louis in re-matches?

I am a huge Wlad fan, and have been forever. But the truth is....

Byrd was just more past it the second time
Brewster was all but done by the time Wlad got to him again
Peter, a live body for sure but not the same Peter wlad beat the first time.

So while yes, Wlad def performes better in rematches, one also has to see that the fighters werent the same as the ones he fought the first time out. These two things combine make for a much more one sided fight then the previous encounters.

IMO
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:11 AM   #4
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Default Re: Wlad a bit like Joe Louis in re-matches?

That is a factor too. All of the guys had been pretty much exposed to an extent in the intermediate period, save Byrd who had lost a step which is clear from his form post second Wlad fight. I still think that Wlad performs better in rematches due to his mental characteristics. But these are hardly dangerous fighters, which is a factor.
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:44 AM   #5
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Default Re: Wlad a bit like Joe Louis in re-matches?

Damn it, Mendoza...
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:57 AM   #6
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Default Re: Wlad a bit like Joe Louis in re-matches?

Not better (Louis only needed a single round against Schmeling and Buddy Baer) but certainly very good. However, I think this is largely due to Wlad's general improvement from 2005 onwards, rather than due to Wlad adapting to different opponents.

Joe Louis would adapt his style on an opponent-by-opponent basis in rematches, e.g. against Buddy Baer he capitalised on Baer's vulnerability on the inside; against Schmeling he watched the right hand more and wasn't so predictable; against Godoy he used the uppercut and subsequent combinations to handle Arturo's mauling approach; against Walcott, he worked more to bait Walcott into vulnerable situations and so on. Wlad simply hasn't shown that kind of flexibility.

What Wlad has shown is that he has generally adapted his style to maximise his strengths and minimise his weaknesses. So the slow, methodlogical approach has thus far negated his problems with stamina, while his defensiveness has kept that chin out of harm's way. His approach now makes his classical orthodox skills the main issue of the fight, while still allowing his impressive power to come into play.

As good as Louis in rematches? No way. Has Wlad flourished into a top 30 or even top 20 ATG? In my opinion, yes. He's the best new heavyweight since Lewis and Bowe went pro in 1989, as I see it.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:08 AM   #7
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Default Re: Wlad a bit like Joe Louis in re-matches?

Not as good as Louis. I said a bit like Louis. In truth, Schmeling was though to be past his best for the 1st match with Louis. Conn only fought two more times after the 2nd defeat to Louis.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:15 AM   #8
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Default Re: Wlad a bit like Joe Louis in re-matches?

Wlad's rematches have all came years after the original fights, so general imporvement largely accounts for the better performances (which has been mentioned), and also the opponents were worse versions of themselves in the original fights (also mentioned).

Someone made a good post a couple of months ago that technical boxers tend to do better in rematches than brawlers, because they're likely to be more adaptable and will learn more from the first fight
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:21 AM   #9
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Default Re: Wlad a bit like Joe Louis in re-matches?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
The specutlar TKO of Byrd. The systematic beat down of Brewster. And now the destruction of Peter. Is Wlad even better in re-matches? I think so.
To his credit, yes he is.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:25 AM   #10
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Default Re: Wlad a bit like Joe Louis in re-matches?

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Not as good as Louis. I said a bit like Louis. In truth, Schmeling was though to be past his best for the 1st match with Louis. Conn only fought two more times after the 2nd defeat to Louis.
Schmeling was thought to be past his best against Louis in the first fight, but I don't think anyone denied that he was a serious threat in the second fight. One could also note how Byrd's career has deteriorated since the Wlad fight and how Brewster was semi-retired by the rematch against Wlad.

But these are just classic talking points that compare reality against an ideal and then note that reality fails to match up. The fact is, both Wlad and Louis have very impressive records in rematches. In the case of Louis, I think this was because (probably due to a lack of film) he didn't adapt to boxers before fights, but could do so in rematches. In the case of Wlad, it's been due to a stellar improvement since 2005 that has made him less exciting to watch, but also far far far tougher to beat.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:25 AM   #11
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Default Re: Wlad a bit like Joe Louis in re-matches?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
The specutlar TKO of Byrd. The systematic beat down of Brewster. And now the destruction of Peter. Is Wlad even better in re-matches? I think so.
Truth!
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:32 AM   #12
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Default Re: Wlad a bit like Joe Louis in re-matches?

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Originally Posted by The Kurgan View Post
Schmeling was thought to be past his best against Louis in the first fight, but I don't think anyone denied that he was a serious threat in the second fight. One could also note how Byrd's career has deteriorated since the Wlad fight and how Brewster was semi-retired by the rematch against Wlad.

But these are just classic talking points that compare reality against an ideal and then note that reality fails to match up. The fact is, both Wlad and Louis have very impressive records in rematches. In the case of Louis, I think this was because (probably due to a lack of film) he didn't adapt to boxers before fights, but could do so in rematches. In the case of Wlad, it's been due to a stellar improvement since 2005 that has made him less exciting to watch, but also far far far tougher to beat.
I disagree here. Look at the circumstances of the fight, the burden of having to fight for an idea he never believed in, the burden of fighting not only one man but a whole nation. He was worried about his wife who had to listen to the fight at Goebbelīs place. He couldnīt prepare properly once he was in the US and so on.
If this would have been a normal fight, I would agree. But that mental pressure was just too much. I can only think of one other fighter who faced something similar in the history of sport and thatīs Jack Johnson in his fight against Jeffries.
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Old 09-12-2010, 01:37 PM   #13
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Default Re: Wlad a bit like Joe Louis in re-matches?

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Originally Posted by bodhi View Post
I disagree here. Look at the circumstances of the fight, the burden of having to fight for an idea he never believed in, the burden of fighting not only one man but a whole nation. He was worried about his wife who had to listen to the fight at Goebbelīs place. He couldnīt prepare properly once he was in the US and so on.
If this would have been a normal fight, I would agree. But that mental pressure was just too much. I can only think of one other fighter who faced something similar in the history of sport and thatīs Jack Johnson in his fight against Jeffries.
It's easy to say this after the fact. What about the pressure on Louis?

My point is this: until Louis actually destroyed Schmeling, no-one doubted that Schmeling could win and was a very serious contender.
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Old 09-12-2010, 01:44 PM   #14
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Default Re: Wlad a bit like Joe Louis in re-matches?

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Originally Posted by The Kurgan View Post
It's easy to say this after the fact. What about the pressure on Louis?

My point is this: until Louis actually destroyed Schmeling, no-one doubted that Schmeling could win and was a very serious contender.
Louis had pressure but he fought at home with people supporting him, Schmeling did not, he had a hostile crowd against him, a crowd that didnīt let him sleep in his hotel and did not let him train properly at his gym once he was in the US. A crowd that threw all kind of things at him and spit at him when he made his walk into the ring. Sorry but thatīs not comparable.

Of course no one doubted that. People had the first fight in mind. Which happened two years earlier. Schmeling was considered past prime even then but not two years later? And yeah he still was a serious contender. I donīt dispute that. What I dispute that he was the moment he entered the ring.
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Old 09-12-2010, 02:42 PM   #15
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Default Re: Wlad a bit like Joe Louis in re-matches?

Vlad has shown an improvement in tough rematches something that great fighters like Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano,Ali have shown and others like Holmes avoided. However the Sanders fight and the Purity fight were never re matched and that may have been a timing issue. I think we all know Vlad was dominating Purrity but simply got gassed and got caught cold by Sanders like Lewis did vs McCall but Vlad got up to get hit again by the hard-punching,quick-fisted Southpaw who Vlad mistakenly took lightly.

I think Vlad has improved his game. Is one of the most naturally talented Big men ever, right below Lewis, along side his brother and higher than Bowe,Primo,Willard,Buddy Baer, and any other fighter that is over 6"4 240

Manny Stewart said it well when he said he thought Vlad may have more natural ability than Lewis but Lewis fought the better man and Vlad has not had the opportunity to fight the types of fighter like Evander, Tyson and Vitali to prove or not prove his greatness. Lewis feels Vlad could have the potential to be better than Lewis

I still do not think we have seen the best of Vlad, but I think Vitali is starting to slip. I would still hate to see Briggs beat him because Vitali and Vlad are a good example of dedication, work ethic, and intelligence, something that is not appreciated these days
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