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View Poll Results: Juan Manuel Marquez: Great fighter or All-Time Great fighter?
Yes, I consider him to be an ATG 35 53.85%
No, he's just very good. 30 46.15%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-24-2010, 05:24 AM   #136
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by Addie View Post
Indeed, but the thread only exists to ask the Classic if they believe Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG or not. You think I'm on his case all the time, and that I resent him because of how great he has become in his own right and therefore inevitably being compared with the likes of Barrera, but that's not it at all. I cheered him on in his two biggest fights with Manny Pacquiao, and I've acknowledged that in the event he gets one big win at 140lbs, then I'd have no quarrels with ranking him alongside his Mexican contemporaries. Greatness is attainable for him, he just needs one big win. That's all.
I dont think you're obsessed with putting down Marquez, but it certainly shows in your postings how protective of MAB you are......you go to all lenghths to protect any negative opinion thrown toward him, and yet you invite negative opinions to be thrown toward Marquez.

The bottom line is that an official resume with the names of certain fighters on paper is not what defines an ATG fighter as you would like to suggest.


Max Kellerman nailed it on this youtube clip.
When in an era of great featherweights, maybe the richest featherweight era in history, Marquez can come out of it and argue not to have lost a fight in that era....
Like Kellerman, I agree.....Juan Manuel Marquez is the best featherweight of his era, and with that can be argued he belongs with the ATG's in the history of the sport.

Kellerman explained it very eloquently here.......

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93FGqJiEkWo[/ame]
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:32 AM   #137
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

[quote=Addie;7828220]Indeed, but the thread only exists to ask the Classic if they believe Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG or not. You think I'm on his case all the time, and that I resent him because of how great he has become in his own right and therefore inevitably being compared with the likes of Barrera, but that's not it at all. I cheered him on in his two biggest fights with Manny Pacquiao, and I've acknowledged that in the event he gets one big win at 140lbs, then I'd have no quarrels with ranking him alongside his Mexican contemporaries. Greatness is attainable for him, he just needs one big win. That's all.[/quote]


I dont agree that Marquez needs a big win at 140 lbs.

The man will be 38 years old by the time he's likely to get a crack at a 140 lbs title.

Its asking alot for a 38 year old fighter to prove himself against young studs at 140 lbs so that in order you can qualify him as an ATG.......

Its possible that Marquez can win a title at 140 lbs, but as far as I'm concerned that would only be gravy on an already fabulous ATG career.
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:40 AM   #138
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Max Kellerman is certainly gospel.

He once described Zab Judah as "Whitaker with power".

I'm currently underwhelmed by Marquez's win column, and I do think an ATG fighter should certainly have either defeated great fighters in their prime, or established dominance over a sustained period of time. Marquez has done neither, so as I say, only in the event he lands one big win, a signature win, will I consider him to be on the level of his two greater rivals.

The only thing left to do is agree to disagree.
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:50 AM   #139
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Basilly Addie it comes down to this. If Barrera and Morales are ATG's(which they are, imo) then Marquez is.
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:53 AM   #140
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Basilly Addie it comes down to this. If Barrera and Morales are ATG's(which they are, imo) then Marquez is.
They have better top tier victories than Marquez does so we're in a disagreement.
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:00 AM   #141
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by Addie View Post
Max Kellerman is certainly gospel.

He once described Zab Judah as "Whitaker with power".

I'm currently underwhelmed by Marquez's win column, and I do think an ATG fighter should certainly have either defeated great fighters in their prime, or established dominance over a sustained period of time. Marquez has done neither, so as I say, only in the event he lands one big win, a signature win, will I consider him to be on the level of his two greater rivals.

The only thing left to do is agree to disagree.

Please Addie, Kellerman's comments on Judah was his gauge on him at the time Judah was an up and comer......this was before Judah's loss to Tszyu.......

Analyst and commentators are wrong all the time on their opinion of up and comers........

Everyone here on ESB have been wrong in appraising young talent........if we're fair, as Kellerman was, we have no way of knowing these fighters work ethic and mentality.......


Lets be real here......though the word of any analyst is not the Gospel......there are many analyst that feel as Kellerman does......and note that those notes by Kellerman came after everything was said and done and the final chapter of that "featheweight" era was written.

Kellerman is making that comment after having witnessed the era, not before in appraising a possible talent.

A commentary after an era is finished certainly holds more value than an opinion before or during an era.


Trying to bring Kellerman down over a comment he said in trying to appraise a young Judah before the big fights came for him, is a weak argument in trying to put down his assesment of an era he had already witnessed.
.......its like comparing apples and oranges.

Keep it real Addie.
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:05 AM   #142
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by Addie View Post
They have better top tier victories than Marquez does so we're in a disagreement.
In other words, you dont see and appraise the fights, you appraise the paper that shows the resume.


Listen, not every fighter is fortunate to be granted the fights he wishes.......

.....but we can guage and appraise the fights we witnessed, and comparing fighters, guage them and comparing their performances through common opponents.
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:16 AM   #143
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Please Addie, Kellerman's comments on Judah was his gauge on him at the time Judah was an up and comer......this was before Judah's loss to Tszyu.......
Still an outrageous quote by any standard.

Quote:
Analyst and commentators are wrong all the time on their opinion of up and comers........
I'd cut you short. Analysts and commentators are wrong all the time, not just regarding up and comers, but about anything and everything regarding Boxing. Max Kellerman has an opinion just like the rest of us, but I'm not convinced his carries a great deal of weight.

Quote:
Everyone here on ESB have been wrong in appraising young talent........if we're fair, as Kellerman was, we have no way of knowing these fighters work ethic and mentality.......
He gets paid to come out with shit like that. It's non-comparable.

Quote:
Lets be real here......though the word of any analyst is not the Gospel......there are many analyst that feel as Kellerman does......and note that those notes by Kellerman came after everything was said and done and the final chapter of that "featheweight" era was written.
He's entitled to his opinion. I don't know what else I'm supposed to say?

Quote:
Kellerman is making that comment after having witnessed the era, not before in appraising a possible talent.
I was simply pointing out his earlier quote to demonstrate that this Max Kellerman character has been responsible for the odd blunder.

Quote:
A commentary after an era is finished certainly holds more value than an opinion before or during an era.
What value do you think that video actually has? Seriously?


Quote:
Trying to bring Kellerman down over a comment he said in trying to appraise a young Judah before the big fights came for him, is a weak argument in trying to put down his assesment of an era he had already witnessed.
At least I'm doing the arguing, whereas you're posting videos of Max Kellerman. Smarten up, Divac. I've seen that video hundereds of times before, and I'll reiterate, he's entitled to his opinion.

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Keep it real Addie.
Take your own advice.
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:23 AM   #144
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by divac View Post
I dont think you're obsessed with putting down Marquez, but it certainly shows in your postings how protective of MAB you are......you go to all lenghths to protect any negative opinion thrown toward him, and yet you invite negative opinions to be thrown toward Marquez.

The bottom line is that an official resume with the names of certain fighters on paper is not what defines an ATG fighter as you would like to suggest.


Max Kellerman nailed it on this youtube clip.
When in an era of great featherweights, maybe the richest featherweight era in history, Marquez can come out of it and argue not to have lost a fight in that era....
Like Kellerman, I agree.....Juan Manuel Marquez is the best featherweight of his era, and with that can be argued he belongs with the ATG's in the history of the sport.
Yeah but it's not like he faced everyone in that era Vlade. He can argue he is the best if he wants, but the truth of it is he didn't even face Morales or Hamed and he faced an old Barrera and had big issues with him.

It's like saying Felix Trinidad came out of a great era of welterweights and he can argue he never lost of a fight, so therefore he sits comfortably with all time welterweight greats. Fact is, he never faced Quartey, never faced Jose Luis lopez, never faced Forrest, never faced Mosley, and he faced an old and just about insignificant Whitaker.

Now with Marquez, I'm not saying it's his fault that he didn't face them, but you can't go around making a big deal about his standing in the era when the guy didn't face half the best fighters in the era. And that's to say nothing of the fact that he arguably lost some of the fights he participated in.
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:43 AM   #145
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Yeah but it's not like he faced everyone in that era Vlade. He can argue he is the best if he wants, but the truth of it is he didn't even face Morales or Hamed and he faced an old Barrera and had big issues with him.

It's like saying Felix Trinidad came out of a great era of welterweights and he can argue he never lost of a fight, so therefore he sits comfortably with all time welterweight greats. Fact is, he never faced Quartey, never faced Jose Luis lopez, never faced Forrest, never faced Mosley, and he faced an old and just about insignificant Whitaker.

Now with Marquez, I'm not saying it's his fault that he didn't face them, but you can't go around making a big deal about his standing in the era when the guy didn't face half the best fighters in the era. And that's to say nothing of the fact that he arguably lost some of the fights he participated in.
He faced Pacquiao twice, Barrera, and the fact that he's still going strong at over 37 years of age, knocking out fighters who had'nt been before, goes to show his caliber and it also shows a gauge of what he could have accomplished had he been given the opportunity against the likes of MAB, Morales, Hamed, when they were in their prime.....


......and please Scientist......that was a clear UD by Marquez over MAB, its ridiculous to suggest he had big issues against him.
......dammit Scientist, you know just what to say to hit a nerve with me....
......well let me throw it right back at you....

JMM vs MAB knew the situation.....knew he was facing the perceived legend and sentimental favorite.....knew he had to be the aggressor and take it to MAB......knew that he could not afford to sit back against the sentimental favorite and go into his preffered counter mode and let MAB stall the fight.......

Thats alot of damn things that JMM knew going in vs MAB.......
You know where I'm going with this Scientist!!!


JMM knew alot of things heading into that MAB fight, and he did something about it.
He drew up and fought within a gameplan that would get it done considering the circumtances he was in facing the sentimental favorite and crowd favorite.....
.......Thats what GREAT fighters do......



Now I'll turn it on you and say that your favorite knew alot of things also........alot of things going into fights that your favorite knew.......but unlike JMM, he did'nt do a damn thing about changing the gameplan to give himself a proper chance to win under the circumstances he fought in.......


The greats Scientist survey the playing field and fight accordingly.......not go into the same mode they've become accustomed too knowing full well that it may very well not be enough.

You know very well what I'm talking about scientist!





















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Old 09-24-2010, 06:50 AM   #146
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

I had Marquez winning 7-5. It was a very difficult fight for Marquez, fighting a weathered, blown-up Marco Antonio Barerra. He'd have most likely been on the receiving end of most of the exchanges had that fight took place five years prior.
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:58 AM   #147
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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I had Marquez winning 7-5. It was a very difficult fight for Marquez, fighting a weathered, blown-up Marco Antonio Barerra. He'd have most likely been on the receiving end of most of the exchanges had that fight took place five years prior.
Had it taken place 5 years prior, its MAB the aggressor and JMM sitting in the pocket in counter mode.

......a fair argument can be put up that would suggest that both in their primes, Marquez actually has an easier time in that the roles change and its MAB actually playing right into JMM's hands by being more of an aggressor.




.......and whats this "blown up" Marco????

They fought at 130 lbs, the same ****ing weight where MAB got his victory over Erik Morales in fight 3.
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Old 09-24-2010, 07:05 AM   #148
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by divac View Post
He faced Pacquiao twice, Barrera, and the fact that he's still going strong at over 37 years of age, knocking out fighters who had'nt been before, goes to show his caliber and it also shows a gauge of what he could have accomplished had he been given the opportunity against the likes of MAB, Morales, Hamed, when they were in their prime.....


......and please Scientist......that was a clear UD by Marquez over MAB, its ridiculous to suggest he had big issues against him.
......dammit Scientist, you know just what to say to hit a nerve with me....
......well let me throw it right back at you....
The truth often hurts my friend.

Listen Vlade, most unbiased observers had Marquez beating Barrera 7-5. Forget your own score and look at what the common scorer thinks. Sure they don't have your intimate knowledge of Marquez and his thought processes and movements (aka they aren't on JMM's nuts) but that notwithstanding they can give a fair account of the fight.

The fact of the matter is that Marquez DID have trouble with Barrera. It was a clear UD I agree with you, but that doesn't mean it wasn't close and Marquez was untroubled. 95% of unbiased people will admit that fight was close and Marquez had trouble.

Now, I like most feel that Barrera probably would have edged Marquez out in his prime, but that's neither here nor there in terms of the fight they actually had.



Quote:
JMM vs MAB knew the situation.....knew he was facing the perceived legend and sentimental favorite.....knew he had to be the aggressor and take it to MAB......knew that he could not afford to sit back against the sentimental favorite and go into his preffered counter mode and let MAB stall the fight.......

Thats alot of damn things that JMM knew going in vs MAB.......
You know where I'm going with this Scientist!!!


JMM knew alot of things heading into that MAB fight, and he did something about it.
He drew up and fought within a gameplan that would get it done considering the circumtances he was in facing the sentimental favorite and crowd favorite.....
.......Thats what GREAT fighters do......


Now I'll turn it on you and say that your favorite knew alot of things also........alot of things going into fights that your favorite knew.......but unlike JMM, he did'nt do a damn thing about changing the gameplan to give himself a proper chance to win under the circumstances he fought in.......


The greats Scientist survey the playing field and fight accordingly.......not go into the same mode they've become accustomed too knowing full well that it may very well not be enough.

You know very well what I'm talking about scientist!
Yeah, you're talking about Juan Manuel Marquez being great and Pernell Whitaker not being great.

As I said, the truth hurts, and that's why what you say here just makes me laugh

Last edited by sweet_scientist; 09-24-2010 at 07:49 AM.
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Old 09-24-2010, 07:15 AM   #149
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Had it taken place 5 years prior, its MAB the aggressor and JMM sitting in the pocket in counter mode.
MAB was an aggressor in 2002? Trying telling that to Erik Morales and Johnny Tapia.

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.......and whats this "blown up" Marco????
Physically, Barrera wasn't in terrifically good shape against Marquez, who carried the weight a lot better given how he had a bigger frame and having started his professional career at 126lbs whereas Marco started his at Super Flyweight. As I say, he looked a bit soft in the body when he fought Marquez, and he was tiring badly in the championship rounds, just as he had done in most of his fights at 130lbs.

What was your scorecard?
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Old 09-24-2010, 08:05 AM   #150
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by Addie View Post
MAB was an aggressor in 2002? Trying telling that to Erik Morales and Johnny Tapia.



Physically, Barrera wasn't in terrifically good shape against Marquez, who carried the weight a lot better given how he had a bigger frame and having started his professional career at 126lbs whereas Marco started his at Super Flyweight. As I say, he looked a bit soft in the body when he fought Marquez, and he was tiring badly in the championship rounds, just as he had done in most of his fights at 130lbs.

What was your scorecard?
I think Divac had Marquez winning 9-3, but it may have been even wider than that.
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