Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


View Poll Results: Juan Manuel Marquez: Great fighter or All-Time Great fighter?
Yes, I consider him to be an ATG 35 53.85%
No, he's just very good. 30 46.15%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-24-2010, 01:10 PM   #166
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,610
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet_scientist View Post
I don't even think he had a case in the first one. In fact, Pac was robbed of a well earned win because of an incompetent judge.

Second fight could have gone his way though.
People bring that up, but then again didn't another judge award Pacquaio 7 rounds, which is equally as incompetant.
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 09-24-2010, 01:15 PM   #167
sweet_scientist
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,870
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
People bring that up, but then again didn't another judge award Pacquaio 7 rounds, which is equally as incompetant.
Yes, but I don't think Marquez has a good argument for winning that fight. I mention the judging error because it was the error that cost Pac a win he deserved, not simply because it was a moment of incompetence.
sweet_scientist is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2010, 01:17 PM   #168
sweet_scientist
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,870
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by la-califa View Post
Marquez fought very well in the first fight. but multiple knockdowns are an impossible handicap to overcome in a close fight.
He fought valiantly and showed great heart. He also had the better of the action from about the third round on, which again, is quite praise worthy. But I think that was a close clear win for Pac to most guys that view it fairly.
sweet_scientist is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2010, 01:28 PM   #169
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,610
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet_scientist View Post
Yes, but I don't think Marquez has a good argument for winning that fight. I mention the judging error because it was the error that cost Pac a win he deserved, not simply because it was a moment of incompetence.
Well Marquez did have a good case for winning 8 rounds, which means he'd have won, people were rightfully 50-50 on the outcome. At the end of the day it boils down to if you gave Marquez 7 or 8 rounds, anything else is just bad scoring

Anyone giving Pacquaio 7 rounds in that fight is a terrible judge. I'm not sure if its a judges discretion to stop taking points after a certain number of KDs anyway, I've heard it said it is but not sure if its after 2 or 3 KDs
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2010, 02:19 PM   #170
Popkins
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 13,401
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Well Marquez did have a good case for winning 8 rounds, which means he'd have won, people were rightfully 50-50 on the outcome. At the end of the day it boils down to if you gave Marquez 7 or 8 rounds, anything else is just bad scoring

Anyone giving Pacquaio 7 rounds in that fight is a terrible judge. I'm not sure if its a judges discretion to stop taking points after a certain number of KDs anyway, I've heard it said it is but not sure if its after 2 or 3 KDs
115-112 Pacquiao all day
Popkins is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2010, 05:04 PM   #171
divac
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: LosAngeles
Posts: 12,515
vCash: 75
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet_scientist View Post
I don't even think he had a case in the first one. In fact, Pac was robbed of a well earned win because of an incompetent judge.

Second fight could have gone his way though.
Thankyou Scientist, because you just lost all credibility when it relates to Marquez.

To say that you though Pacquiao won that first fight is one thing, but to say that Marquez did'nt have a case?

......there were scores or boxing beat writers who had Marquez winning that first Pacquiao fight.

A case can be made Marquez won every round past the 2nd.......

I personally scored that fight 9-3 in favor of Marquez.
......Marquez boxed an absolute masterclass past the 2nd round.....
......as John Garfield put it earlier, the man could go to a plan b, c, d.............

......and in both fights, once Marquez had a guage of what was it Pacquiao was doing and was going to do, Pacquiao just could not match witts with him and was getting thoroughly outboxed.


I'll reiterate Scientist......your fighter had no such thing as a plan b, c, d......once it went south for him, making an adjustment never entered his mind.

.....and no, it does'nt mean Pernell was'nt a great fighter.
His physical ability with his defensive manuevers was as fool proof as it gets to avoid getting beaten down, but it sure wa'snt fool proof enough to get him into position to win fights against the elites of the game at the time which was Chavez and DLH......
.......I can even add the Rivera and Vasquez fights there as well......the Rivera fight a robbery, and the Vaszquez fight a close enough fight where Pea did nothing as far as changing a gameplan to ensure victory but fight the way he's always fought (in defensive mode) no risks.

Thats what was probably your fighters mentality, "no risk" even if it means I might not get the decision here.
divac is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2010, 05:07 PM   #172
Addie
MAB.
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK, England
Posts: 21,045
vCash: 842
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by divac View Post
A case can be made Marquez won every round past the 2nd.......
Come on, Divac. No ****ing way, dude.
Addie is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2010, 05:23 PM   #173
divac
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: LosAngeles
Posts: 12,515
vCash: 75
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by john garfield View Post
As a '26-pounder -- ABSOLUTELY! JMM was a fight-trainer's dream. Though he had the delicate hands of a concert pianist, he was 100% ol' school pro. Could go to plan B, C, 'n D, had every tool, could crack with both hands, didn't rattle under fire, 'n the balls of a heavyweight
That was beautiful jg!
divac is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2010, 05:32 PM   #174
TheGreatA
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,098
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

To be honest it's you whose credibility is in question when it comes to Marquez. There seems to be no convincing you that Marquez may not have been the greatest thing since sliced bread. Have some objectivity.

Whitaker by the way took the fight to Chavez a lot in that fight and was willing to trade punches in close. He won the fight, plain and simple, and there's no justifying a robbery. If you want to go that route then Marquez "didn't do enough" to take the wins from Pacquiao.
TheGreatA is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2010, 05:38 PM   #175
divac
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: LosAngeles
Posts: 12,515
vCash: 75
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popkins View Post
115-112 Pacquiao all day
You're a joke......a 115 score for Pacquiao is giving him 7 rounds........

Most Pactards only gave Pacquiao 5 rounds in that fight because they had to hide their audacity and 5 rounds is what was needed for the scores to tally up on Pacquiao's favor to total a victory.

You're coming here in the "Classic" seciton and telling us Pacquiao won 7 rounds in that fight????
divac is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2010, 05:43 PM   #176
divac
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: LosAngeles
Posts: 12,515
vCash: 75
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Addie View Post
Come on, Divac. No ****ing way, dude.
I gave Pacquiao one of the later rounds.....I think it was the 9th.......

I scored it 9-3 in favor of Marquez.......which with the knockdowns goes from a 117-111 score to a 114-111


.......go argue with Popkins and ask him how the hell he comes up with a 115-112 score with those knockdowns?
divac is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2010, 05:45 PM   #177
Addie
MAB.
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK, England
Posts: 21,045
vCash: 842
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by divac View Post
I gave Pacquiao one of the later rounds.....I think it was the 9th.......

I scored it 9-3 in favor of Marquez.......which with the knockdowns goes from a 117-111 score to a 114-111


.......go argue with Popkins and ask him how the hell he comes up with a 115-112 score with those knockdowns?
I don't think there can be a case for Marquez winning every round after the second. That's just not reality, Divac. He sure as shit won the majority of them, but not all 10!

When was the last time you scored this fight?
Addie is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2010, 05:49 PM   #178
divac
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: LosAngeles
Posts: 12,515
vCash: 75
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
To be honest it's you whose credibility is in question when it comes to Marquez. There seems to be no convincing you that Marquez may not have been the greatest thing since sliced bread. Have some objectivity.

Whitaker by the way took the fight to Chavez a lot in that fight and was willing to trade punches in close. He won the fight, plain and simple, and there's no justifying a robbery. If you want to go that route then Marquez "didn't do enough" to take the wins from Pacquiao.
I'm not saying he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I am saying that in one of the richest era's or featherweight boxing, Marquez was the best of that lot and imo that alone qualifies him consideration as an ATG.
divac is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2010, 06:16 PM   #179
Popkins
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 13,401
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by divac View Post
I gave Pacquiao one of the later rounds.....I think it was the 9th.......

I scored it 9-3 in favor of Marquez.......which with the knockdowns goes from a 117-111 score to a 114-111


.......go argue with Popkins and ask him how the hell he comes up with a 115-112 score with those knockdowns?
A case can indeed be made for Marquez winning every round after the 2nd...






...if you're a complete ****ing tool with no concept whatsoever of how to score a boxing match, that is.


Here is the opening post from a thread I made on Pac-JMM 1:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popkins View Post
This thread is in response to the many comments I see on here like this:



The 'he' referred to being Juan Manuel Marquez of course.

Now, to start with, here is my scorecard for Pac and JMM's first fight:


R1: Pac 10-6 (clear)
R2: Pac 10-9 (clear)
R3: JMM 10-9 (clear)
R4: JMM 10-9 (clear)
R5: JMM 10-9 (clear)
R6: JMM 10-9 (clear)
R7: 10-10 (could have been a Pac round, but have gone with draw)
R8: 10-10 (definitely an even round)
R9: Pac 10-9 (close)
R10: Pac 10-9 (clear)
R11: JMM 10-9 (clear)
R12: Pac 10-9 (clear)
TOTAL - Pac 115, Marquez 112


I watched the fight twice, watched certain close rounds more than that, and feel certain that this is a solid card.

However, boxing is not a science and I am not infallible, so I will make an example to prove the point:

Some people may disagree with my scoring on certain rounds, but to be honest I really don't think there is much room for debate on the rounds that I have labelled clear:

Pac: 1,2,10,12
JMM: 3,4,5,6,11

If you consider that round 1 must have been a 10-6 for Pacquiao, then how can anyone arrive at a wide victory for Marquez?? To me, it just doesn't add up at all. One 10-6 round plus three 10-9 rounds equals 7 points lost for JMM, so the highest score he can finish on is 113. How can JMM have won widely on the cards with a score of 113?

If you eliminate my personal choices over the close rounds which I either gave as a draw or to Pac, and give all of these rounds to JMM other than the four rounds which Pac surely won (1,2,10,12), then the scorecard still only comes to 113-112 for Marquez:

R1: Pac 10-6
R2: Pac 10-9
R3: JMM 10-9
R4: JMM 10-9
R5: JMM 10-9
R6: JMM 10-9
R7: JMM 10-9
R8: JMM 10-9
R9: JMM 10-9
R10: Pac 10-9
R11: JMM 10-9
R12: Pac 10-9
Total - Pac 112, Marquez 113


How that one judge could arrive at a 115-110 scorecard for Marquez is ****ing bizarre. I can't work out how the hell he came up with that one!
The quote I refer to at the start was a typically retarded comment from PowerPuncher who said that Marquez had "beat the stuffing" out of Pacquiao.

That's my 'two cents' on the issue.
Popkins is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2010, 06:21 PM   #180
bodhi
So I can die easy ...
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,491
vCash: 1337
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Nah, he is one of those guys who just fall short. Like James Toney, Shane Mosley and those guys. Great fighters but no atgs.
bodhi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013