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View Poll Results: Juan Manuel Marquez: Great fighter or All-Time Great fighter?
Yes, I consider him to be an ATG 35 53.85%
No, he's just very good. 30 46.15%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-24-2010, 07:49 PM   #181
divac
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

I see Popkins, you had to look at the fight several times and find a way to score for Pacquiao without making it look ridiculous.....

Both those Marquez-Pacquiao fights where pretty cut and dry as far as the ease for wish to score a round.

......neither of those fights merited scoring even rounds in......you have two in the first fight wish I find as being bad scoring......

.....and yeah, I known Pactard in the General forum is going to score round 7 even and as a sidenote post it could have been a Pac round? Spare us the hypocrisy.

Your note on a couple of those late rounds being clear for Pac is ridiculous........Pac did'nt win anything clear past the 2nd round.
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Old 09-25-2010, 01:55 AM   #182
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by divac View Post
Thankyou Scientist, because you just lost all credibility when it relates to Marquez.

To say that you though Pacquiao won that first fight is one thing, but to say that Marquez did'nt have a case?

......there were scores or boxing beat writers who had Marquez winning that first Pacquiao fight.

A case can be made Marquez won every round past the 2nd.......
There is no case for that at all.

Quote:
I personally scored that fight 9-3 in favor of Marquez.
......Marquez boxed an absolute masterclass past the 2nd round.....
......as John Garfield put it earlier, the man could go to a plan b, c, d.............

......and in both fights, once Marquez had a guage of what was it Pacquiao was doing and was going to do, Pacquiao just could not match witts with him and was getting thoroughly outboxed.


I'll reiterate Scientist......your fighter had no such thing as a plan b, c, d......once it went south for him, making an adjustment never entered his mind.
What was Marquez' plan B against Floyd Mayweather? What was his plan B after following Chris John around the ring like a goose and not being able to cut the ring off to save his life? What was his plan B against the suitably titled B level Freddie Norwood?

If Marquez ever got into the ring against Whitaker, he'd need to scour all the alphabets of the world to find a letter for a plan to win a round



Quote:
.....and no, it does'nt mean Pernell was'nt a great fighter.
His physical ability with his defensive manuevers was as fool proof as it gets to avoid getting beaten down, but it sure wa'snt fool proof enough to get him into position to win fights against the elites of the game at the time which was Chavez and DLH......
It's one thing to adjust to an old Barrera, it's another thing to adjust to a prime DLH when you are yourself past your best mate. Seriously, do I need to elaborate on this?

I'm not even going to go into the Chavez fight. The stupidity of him being brought up speaks for itself.

Quote:
.......I can even add the Rivera and Vasquez fights there as well......the Rivera fight a robbery, and the Vaszquez fight a close enough fight where Pea did nothing as far as changing a gameplan to ensure victory but fight the way he's always fought (in defensive mode) no risks.
Whitaker won the final rounds against Vasquez through the use of his jab, and did make adjustments to Rivera the second time around. But even the first fight was no robbery, but it's the closest anyone got to beating Pernell, so I suppose you've got to hang your hat on something.

Quote:
Thats what was probably your fighters mentality, "no risk" even if it means I might not get the decision here.
Pernell Whitaker was never in a fight other than the Hurtado fight and the Trinidad fight where he NEEEDED to make adjustments to win FAIRLY. He was robbed against Chavez, he was robbed against Ramirez, he held his own against DLH and did what he could given his limitations at the time. Against Trinidad and Hurtado, he did try and force the issue when he needed to.
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Old 09-25-2010, 01:56 AM   #183
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

no
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Old 09-25-2010, 08:05 PM   #184
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by sweet_scientist View Post
What was Marquez' plan B against Floyd Mayweather? What was his plan B after following Chris John around the ring like a goose and not being able to cut the ring off to save his life? What was his plan B against the suitably titled B level Freddie Norwood?
He beat both John and Norwood.
What can a fighter do when a fighter with better leg speed does'nt want to display boxing, and I'm talking about the John fight?????
Bottom line and you know it, John fought a survival fight and won in his hometown of Indonesia.
The fight was in Indonesia, enough said. You and I both know it but you want to clown about it.

The Norwood fight was Marquez first title try, and though most thought Marquez won it, its the only fight on his resume where Marqquez himself has said that in hindsight, he should have exherted more of himself.
If he had to do it over again, he'd have layed it more on the line and have left no doubts.....In other words, Marquez is saying he would not have taken the Pernell Whitaker route vs Norwood, doing just enough in his mind to win the rounds.

The Mayweather fight, Marquez tried plan a, b, c, and d, the bottom line there was that Mayweather was quicker, faster, stronger, taller, had a reach advantage, along with every physical characteristic advantage you may think of........guess what????
Thats right, Marquez did'nt turn a Whitaker here either.
He tried boxing, he tried muscling, he tried charging, he tried a,b,c,d......and never stopped trying.
Marquez even got knocked down, would Whitaker have???
Probably not, he never took those risks to get knocked down in fights where he felt there was a risk factor.

Ohh, ohhh wait a minute.....Whitaker did find himself on the seat of his pants on occasion, faking a slip, but really going down from the pressure, faking a slip to prevent from getting hit........

Quote:
If Marquez ever got into the ring against Whitaker, he'd need to scour all the alphabets of the world to find a letter for a plan to win a round
Marquez would'nt be given a chance to turn to a plan B.
He'd be in full sprint trying to catch the speedier Whitaker.
At the end of the fight, Marquez would have his hands raised due to his aggression, the judges being turned off by Whitaker's lack of balls to consistently fight round after round......and the same old story blurts out of Whitakers mouth again, "they did it to me again Larry."

Whitaker ultra defensive, no risk mode style loses to just about every elite in boxing history, you know it, I know it Scientist.



Quote:

Whitaker won the final rounds against Vasquez through the use of his jab, and did make adjustments to Rivera the second time around. But even the first fight was no robbery, but it's the closest anyone got to beating Pernell, so I suppose you've got to hang your hat on something.
Oh yeah, the famous push jab, the guager.....Whitaker's power repertoire to which to impress the judges.

Quote:
Pernell Whitaker was never in a fight other than the Hurtado fight and the Trinidad fight.
We agree for once, the man did'nt show up to fight, but to stall so fans like yourself can lay claim he won the fight on ring generalship.
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Old 09-26-2010, 03:14 AM   #185
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Can't believe I'm getting sucked in to a response to this.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by divac View Post
He beat both John and Norwood.
What can a fighter do when a fighter with better leg speed does'nt want to display boxing, and I'm talking about the John fight?????
Bottom line and you know it, John fought a survival fight and won in his hometown of Indonesia.
The fight was in Indonesia, enough said. You and I both know it but you want to clown about it.
Here's an idea, perhaps Marquez could have tried boxing off the back foot, lured John in and then used his counter-punching, which he's actually good at. It's his best facet isn't it? Following a quicker fighter around the ring is about the dumbest thing you could do, especially when you aren't proficient at cutting off the ring - which Marquez showed that he's pretty inept at.

Quote:
The Norwood fight was Marquez first title try, and though most thought Marquez won it, its the only fight on his resume where Marqquez himself has said that in hindsight, he should have exherted more of himself.
If he had to do it over again, he'd have layed it more on the line and have left no doubts.....In other words, Marquez is saying he would not have taken the Pernell Whitaker route vs Norwood, doing just enough in his mind to win the rounds.
Where's your proof that most thought he won?

I actually thought the fight was a draw, and most of the people that I've heard discuss it consider it an either way type of fight.

Marquez at that stage held his own against B-level little Hags. Make all the excuses you want for it, but that's the case. Marquez coulda, shoulda but didn't outbox him.


Quote:
The Mayweather fight, Marquez tried plan a, b, c, and d, the bottom line there was that Mayweather was quicker, faster, stronger, taller, had a reach advantage, along with every physical characteristic advantage you may think of........guess what????
Thats right, Marquez did'nt turn a Whitaker here either.
He tried boxing, he tried muscling, he tried charging, he tried a,b,c,d......and never stopped trying.
Marquez even got knocked down, would Whitaker have???
Probably not, he never took those risks to get knocked down in fights where he felt there was a risk factor.

Ohh, ohhh wait a minute.....Whitaker did find himself on the seat of his pants on occasion, faking a slip, but really going down from the pressure, faking a slip to prevent from getting hit........
Marquez pretty much did the same thing from round 1 to round 12. A mixture of boxing and pressuring. He didn't solve anything and was simply outskilled as he would have been by Mayweather no matter what weight class they fought at. If you are having your hands full with Chris John and Freddie Norwood, or an old Barrera, you're always going to get owned by a Floyd Mayweather.


Quote:
Marquez would'nt be given a chance to turn to a plan B.
He'd be in full sprint trying to catch the speedier Whitaker.
At the end of the fight, Marquez would have his hands raised due to his aggression, the judges being turned off by Whitaker's lack of balls to consistently fight round after round......and the same old story blurts out of Whitakers mouth again, "they did it to me again Larry."
If you were on the judging panel, no doubt. What's to be said of someone that even scores Whitaker-Chavez a draw?

Quote:
Whitaker ultra defensive, no risk mode style loses to just about every elite in boxing history, you know it, I know it Scientist.
C'mon, it at least draws against Chavez.


Quote:
Oh yeah, the famous push jab, the guager.....Whitaker's power repertoire to which to impress the judges.


Quote:
We agree for once, the man did'nt show up to fight, but to stall so fans like yourself can lay claim he won the fight on ring generalship.
Didn't know that "turning up to fight" was a scoring criterion. I'll have to factor that in next time I score a fight
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Old 09-26-2010, 05:16 AM   #186
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by sweet_scientist View Post
Can't believe I'm getting sucked in to a response to this.....


I did'nt think you'd bite, but like a sucker, you did.

I did'nt want to just let it rest after the bogasity you posted........and I see you could'nt let it rest either.

I guess we could go both go on and on making asses of eachother, but I'll just stop and let it lie.

The fact is Pernell Whitaker does'nt deserve to get dissed in the exaggerated way I've done in this thread, and all to get back at you.......

......but I will say honestly Scientist, you dont give the current crop of fighters the respect they merit.
Fighters like Mayweather, Marquez, and even Pacquiao before his (PED controversy) merit more credit than what you've been willing to give them.
You Scientist I feel severely underrate these guys.
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Old 09-26-2010, 06:56 AM   #187
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Of course JMM is an ATG, he has faced some of the best of his time with more wins than losses & is a 3 weight world champion - 1 of only 4 from Mexico (Chavez, Morales, Barrera)

I wouldnt rank him as high as those 3 but those 3 are easily & undisputedly ATGs so that doesnt matter.... he`s quite close to Erik & Marco tho.
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Old 09-26-2010, 07:05 AM   #188
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by la-califa View Post
If only Marquez got the W. in at least one of the Pacquaio fights(Officially). Then his position would have been solidified. Pac. was in his absolute prime. no excuses.
I dont go by the judges, fan power >>>>>>>>>>> judges IMO.

I never scored the 1st Pac fight but a draw seemed OK, I scored the 2nd one to JMM.

The only time in 50+ fights that Marquez was ever decisively beaten was by the bigger Mayweather, who is the superior boxer since Whitaker so no disgrace there & JMM was at WW, was 36 yrs old & he still has never been KO`d.
Also... he was one of the best FWs of his time & beat a Barrera that rolled back the yrs for that fight albeit still past prime.

If we are gonna knock JMMs opponents for being past prime or war torn then we could do that with even guys like Pacquiao (who most/all will agree is an ATG for sure), think about it !
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Old 09-26-2010, 08:30 AM   #189
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
Also... he was one of the best FWs of his time & beat a Barrera that rolled back the yrs for that fight albeit still past prime.
Don't do this, Bill.
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Old 09-26-2010, 09:17 AM   #190
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by divac View Post
I did'nt think you'd bite, but like a sucker, you did.

I did'nt want to just let it rest after the bogasity you posted........and I see you could'nt let it rest either.

I guess we could go both go on and on making asses of eachother, but I'll just stop and let it lie.

The fact is Pernell Whitaker does'nt deserve to get dissed in the exaggerated way I've done in this thread, and all to get back at you.......

......but I will say honestly Scientist, you dont give the current crop of fighters the respect they merit.
Fighters like Mayweather, Marquez, and even Pacquiao before his (PED controversy) merit more credit than what you've been willing to give them.
You Scientist I feel severely underrate these guys.
Maybe I do. I like to think it's because I can put them in perspective with other older, less appreciated fighters, but sure I may have an old-timer bias somewhat.

We've all got our prejudices I suppose, even if we think we are being rational.
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Old 09-26-2010, 06:29 PM   #191
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Clearly an all time great.
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Old 09-27-2010, 12:06 AM   #192
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
Of course JMM is an ATG, he has faced some of the best of his time with more wins than losses & is a 3 weight world champion - 1 of only 4 from Mexico (Chavez, Morales, Barrera)

I wouldnt rank him as high as those 3 but those 3 are easily & undisputedly ATGs so that doesnt matter.... he`s quite close to Erik & Marco tho.

5.

Chavez, Morales, Barrera, Marquez, Montiel.
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Old 09-27-2010, 05:48 AM   #193
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Here was my card:

R1: Pac 10-6 (clear)
R2: Pac 10-9 (clear)
R3: JMM 10-9 (clear)
R4: JMM 10-9 (clear)
R5: JMM 10-9 (clear)
R6: JMM 10-9 (clear)
R7: 10-10 (could have been a Pac round, but have gone with draw)
R8: 10-10 (definitely an even round)
R9: Pac 10-9 (close)
R10: Pac 10-9 (clear)
R11: JMM 10-9 (clear)
R12: Pac 10-9 (clear)
TOTAL - Pac 115, Marquez 112

And here was your response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by divac View Post
I see Popkins, you had to look at the fight several times and find a way to score for Pacquiao without making it look ridiculous.....

Both those Marquez-Pacquiao fights where pretty cut and dry as far as the ease for wish to score a round.

......neither of those fights merited scoring even rounds in......you have two in the first fight wish I find as being bad scoring......

.....and yeah, I known Pactard in the General forum is going to score round 7 even and as a sidenote post it could have been a Pac round? Spare us the hypocrisy.

Your note on a couple of those late rounds being clear for Pac is ridiculous........Pac did'nt win anything clear past the 2nd round.

The very fact that you have failed to name which rounds you disagree with and explain why you disagree with them is evidence that you are a troll who has made his mind up on the fight to suit his own agenda, and is not interested in explaining that position - as I am more than willing to do, hence the reason I posted my card.


I'm calling TROLL here.
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Old 09-27-2010, 07:57 AM   #194
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by divac View Post
I'm not saying he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I am saying that in one of the richest era's or featherweight boxing, Marquez was the best of that lot and imo that alone qualifies him consideration as an ATG.
I cannot see how JMM is the best feather weight?, some mentioned how Tito could not have been the best WW by beating a faded Sweet Pea, the same with JMM beating a faded MAB.

Great fighter though, should of pushed for the bigger fighta no matter what.
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Old 09-27-2010, 08:05 AM   #195
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

JMM is knowwhere near Sweet Pea? , I don't see how it could ever be close?
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