Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

[lora]

Yes, he's in the -5's like kalambay, and after the Katsidis fight i now have him as the greatest counterpuncher of all-time as well.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by turk182

barrera was never lineal SFW champ. the lineal championship @130 was vacant since floyd. a new lineage was established when #1 (pac) and #2 (jmm) fought for it in their 2nd fight. pac won and became the new lineal champ @130. pac vacated it when he went up and there has been no lineal champ @130 ever since.

barrera was lineal at featherweight when pac beat him the first time. that's why pac is also lineal @126.

jmm did become lineal @135 after defeating casa. but casa clearly lost to sta. cruz before his fight w/ jmm.

as for jmm being an ATG, if your ATG list extends to the 90s, then he can be one. but being an ATG means being the best of the best. that means the ATG list should be limited to the top 40 or 50 at most. if this is the case, then jmm still doesn't qualify as an ATG.

as for the poll, there should have been a choice for him being great but still not an ATG.

I was under the impression Morales was lineal after beating Chavez then Hernandez, think he got the Ring Belt too....

Only 2 years ago half the posters around her ranked JMM above Pacquaio, no one doubts Pac is an ATG but JMM who many thought came the better off those 2 fights.....

I don't really bother with lists anymore but I firmly have Marquez on par or above MAB/Morales and plenty of other top 126/130lb fighters, your right its where you draw the line

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by turk182

i dunno. elite p4p fighters who are considered as ATGs shouldn't have competitive fights w/ b-level guys. they should dominate/dismantle/school and then stop them. jmm had very close fights w/ casa, diaz 1 and katsidis until he stopped them. all of these guys even manage to KD him in those fights.

he certainly is a great fighter but i don't think he's an ATG.

Plenty of ATGs had hard time with B Class fighters and even lose to them, especially in their 3rd weight class at the age of 37

[McGrain]

A wonderful fighter.

[lora]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

I was under the impression Morales was lineal after beating Chavez then Hernandez, think he got the Ring Belt too....

Only 2 years ago half the posters around her ranked JMM above Pacquaio, no one doubts Pac is an ATG but JMM who many thought came the better off those 2 fights.....

I don't really bother with lists anymore but I firmly have Marquez on par or above MAB/Morales and plenty of other top 126/130lb fighters, your right its where you draw the line

All joking by me aside, it's certainly true Marquez is vastly underrated compared to Pac(who apparently beats everyone that ever live because of "SPEED, ANGLES, POWER" these days).Blatantly on the same level as a fighter, even if he isn't as good at beating ordinary fighters in as many weightclasses.Being able to do that in 3 weightclasses, as well as being just as good head to head is enough for me.

[DonBoxer]

Originally Posted by Addie

That have campaigned in the last 10 years who would probably make my top 100.

Manny Pacquiao
Roy Jones Jr
Bernard Hopkins
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Marco Antonio Barrera
Erik Morales

No Lennox?

[turk182]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

I was under the impression Morales was lineal after beating Chavez then Hernandez, think he got the Ring Belt too....

Only 2 years ago half the posters around her ranked JMM above Pacquaio, no one doubts Pac is an ATG but JMM who many thought came the better off those 2 fights.....

I don't really bother with lists anymore but I firmly have Marquez on par or above MAB/Morales and plenty of other top 126/130lb fighters, your right its where you draw the line

lineal world champs : [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by turk182

lineal world champs : [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

I don't take Cyberboxingzone.com as a greater authority than The Ring Magazine. And that list doesn't give a history of the lineage anyway, if JMM was lineal going into the fight then Pac's 'win' would still have counted the same. This is all pretty much semantics, Morales unified at 130, MAB beat him, Marquez beat him and many thought deserved the win over Pac anyway

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by lora

All joking by me aside, it's certainly true Marquez is vastly underrated compared to Pac(who apparently beats everyone that ever live because of "SPEED, ANGLES, POWER" these days).Blatantly on the same level as a fighter, even if he isn't as good at beating ordinary fighters in as many weightclasses.Being able to do that in 3 weightclasses, as well as being just as good head to head is enough for me.

Pretty much, Pac is clearly a metomorph who can add muscle quite easily. He's also a career weight drainer, who's now benefiting from not being weight drained. That doesn't make him a GOAT in any weight class though. I'm sad to say I'd probably pick Pac now given they'd be fighting at 147, what a pity a rubber match didn't come off at 135

[turk182]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

I don't take Cyberboxingzone.com as a greater authority than The Ring Magazine. And that list doesn't give a history of the lineage anyway, if JMM was lineal going into the fight then Pac's 'win' would still have counted the same. This is all pretty much semantics, Morales unified at 130, MAB beat him, Marquez beat him and many thought deserved the win over Pac anyway

that list actually does give the history. click on the weight classes in that list and it will take you to the lineal championship history of each weight division.

jmm wasn't the lineal champ @130 going into that 2nd fight w/ pacquiao. both Ring and Cyberboxing says it was vacant since floyd until a new lineage was established by the winner of the 2nd pac/jmm fight which was pacquiao.

[techks]

Originally Posted by turk182

i dunno. elite p4p fighters who are considered as ATGs shouldn't have competitive fights w/ b-level guys. they should dominate/dismantle/school and then stop them. jmm had very close fights w/ casa, diaz 1 and katsidis until he stopped them. all of these guys even manage to KD him in those fights.

he certainly is a great fighter but i don't think he's an ATG.

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Plenty of ATGs had hard time with B Class fighters and even lose to them, especially in their 3rd weight class at the age of 37

PP, you beat me to him. To add to that, styles make fights.

[lora]

I think it's boxers and movers Marquez is stylistically adverse to.katsidis is a workhorse, but he's tailor made for Marquez, who is still more than good enough to cope with fighters like that to a certain degree ability, despite being old and past his best.

I'm hardly the biggest fan of Marquez' ability around here, but i would never deny he's tough as nails with a lot of heart, which helps in these kind of fights at an advanced age.It's something Jones and Tszyu proved to be lacking in imo.

[Body Head]

Robbie Peden
Marco Antonio Barerra
Rocky Juarez
Juan Diaz x2
Joel Cassamayor (37yo)
Derrick Gainer
Manuel Medina

Draw with Pacquaio


He's far from being an ATG yet. Needs two or three more good solid fighters on his resume to become one. Katsidis wasn't even a good win, he beat nobody.

[burt bienstock]

If you want a dream fight between fighters who were great on the inside, how's this-
Lou Ambers vs Juan manuel Marquez...Oh my....

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by Addie

At this stage in his career, without considering the potential of him winning a title at 140lbs, do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG? This may depend on how you scored his fights with Manny Pacquiao, and what criteria you use to distinguish the great fighters from the all-time great fighters. Be sure to explain your reasoning.

Discuss.

ATG? No. Hall of fame? Likley.