Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


View Poll Results: Juan Manuel Marquez: Great fighter or All-Time Great fighter?
Yes, I consider him to be an ATG 35 53.85%
No, he's just very good. 30 46.15%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-13-2011, 04:47 AM   #256
Addie
MAB.
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK, England
Posts: 21,045
vCash: 842
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxed Ears View Post
For the same reason I would have a problem with Ken Norton above Lennox Lewis, even though you could argue he beat Ali three times and those three victories trump Lewis' top three victories. I'm a fan of Ken's, but who really does rate him above Lewis that isn't biased against Lewis?

As far as bodies of work, I can't say I feel Marquez's carries the same historical weight as the other two. I did a thread once asking if Norton was truly great or just very good and enjoyed a perfect stylistic match-up against a true ATG better. Now, I think Marquez is great but should he truly be rated above Barrera and Morales or did he just happen to match up far better against the beast than the other two? Should we read so much into that as to rate him higher? I'm not making that leap, at the moment, although, I always figured H2H those three are of very similar quality and there isn't much to separate any of them.
Yeah, makes sense.
Addie is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 04:49 AM   #257
TBooze
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: South of London
Posts: 10,865
vCash: 301
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
So what are you asking Santa to bring you this year TBOOZE? The evidence is in the 8-4 scorecard. The evidence is that the hometown or cash cow in boxing usually get unfair decisions. Boxing is corrupt, the judges are employed by the promoter who have a vested interest in the outcome of the fight. That in itself is not a fair and impartial set up
So you are saying there should be no judges? A piece of paper with a number of tens and nines on it, will not win you a case in court. Judging is subjective and it can lead to what most would consider an error, but the assumption must be it was a fair error, we all have bad days at the office.
TBooze is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 04:54 AM   #258
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,610
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxed Ears View Post
For the same reason I would have a problem with Ken Norton above Lennox Lewis, even though you could argue he beat Ali three times and those three victories trump Lewis' top three victories. I'm a fan of Ken's, but who really does rate him above Lewis that isn't biased against Lewis?

As far as bodies of work, I can't say I feel Marquez's carries the same historical weight as the other two. I did a thread once asking if Norton was truly great or just very good and enjoyed a perfect stylistic match-up against a true ATG better. Now, I think Marquez is great but should he truly be rated above Barrera and Morales or did he just happen to match up far better against the beast than the other two? Should we read so much into that as to rate him higher? I'm not making that leap, at the moment, although, I always figured H2H those three are of very similar quality and there isn't much to separate any of them.
Marquez legacy doesn't rest on the solely on the shoulders of Pacquaio. He of course beat Barrera, was pretty much considered the best across 3 weight divisions and by rights should be a 4 weight champion. You can also make a good case for each of his defeats to be wins bar the Mayweather fight
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 04:57 AM   #259
Boxed Ears
Smugly Savvy Feelings
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pazinfowit, Esperantia
Posts: 24,822
vCash: 26665
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Marquez legacy doesn't rest on the solely on the shoulders of Pacquaio. He of course beat Barrera, was pretty much considered the best across 3 weight divisions and by rights should be a 4 weight champion. You can also make a good case for each of his defeats to be wins bar the Mayweather fight
1. I didn't say it did.
2. He did and it doesn't go without consideration by me.
3. Was he?
4. I can make a good case for a lot of things, PP. It doesn't make them right.
Boxed Ears is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 11-13-2011, 05:11 AM   #260
prime
BOX! Writing Champion
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Guadalajara, Jal., Mexico
Posts: 1,229
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxed Ears View Post
These are two examples of the same kind of post-fight hysteria. It will level off to giving Marquez reasonable credit and Pacquiao reasonable blame. Not, Marquez might be the GOAT Mexican and Pacquiao is not one of the greatest. People make too much out of single fights, and they always have. Single fights never tell the full story of any great fighter's career and this is far from being any different.
I said Pacquiao is not one of the very greatest, meaning he is no Roberto Duran, no Sugar Ray Robinson, no Joe Louis.

He is good for this time, shooting up strong, limited title holders. But he has struggled mightily with the best fighters he has faced, past their prime when they faced Manny.

The 28-year-old Morales and 38-year-old Márquez have been PacMan's dates with greatness and he has been found wanting. There is nothing hysterical about it.
prime is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 05:21 AM   #261
Boxed Ears
Smugly Savvy Feelings
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pazinfowit, Esperantia
Posts: 24,822
vCash: 26665
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by prime View Post
I said Pacquiao is not one of the very greatest, meaning he is no Roberto Duran, no Sugar Ray Robinson, no Joe Louis.

He is good for this time, shooting up strong, limited title holders. But he has struggled mightily with the best fighters he has faced, past their prime when they faced Manny.

The 28-year-old Morales and 38-year-old Márquez have been PacMan's dates with greatness and he has been found wanting. There is nothing hysterical about it.
Wait, struggling mightily with the best you face is...what? Uncommon in some way? Did Ray Robinson struggle with his best like Basilio, Gavilan, LaMotta...? Did Louis struggle with his best like Walcott and Schmeling? Did Duran struggle mightily with Hagler, Hearns, Benitez and Leonard at any time? I thought it was obvious that you ordinarily struggle with the best you face, if the group is at all special.

And, for the record, as strange as it might sound, while Marquez has been aging...so has Manny. Manny's been in brutal war after brutal war throughout his career. He also had his date with greatness against a prime Barrera and I don't remember him being found wanting there at all. Do you? How are you shoving in the Morales fight and leaving out the Barrera fight so conveniently? I sense a bias here. He's been fighting the best for most of his career, and usually wins. Like most of the top greats. I rate him in the top 20-30. I think regardless of one match-up with one fighter, we can pretty much say he's one of the greatest. I don't see how it's even particularly debatable at this point, unless your memory is rather short. The kind that forgets wins like, say, the Barrera win, for instance.
Boxed Ears is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 05:43 AM   #262
Flea Man
มวยสากล
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: @ferociousflea
Posts: 39,853
vCash: 75
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Ears
Flea Man is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 05:53 AM   #263
Sister Sledge
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Based Land
Posts: 9,060
vCash: 75
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Good to know true boxing fans are out there. My wife is Pinoy, and all they talk about is winning. I tell them he didn't win, the judges gave him the decision. Marquez ring IQ is what put him over MAB and Morales for me. The way he disrupted Pacman's offense was masterful. He's a great, great fighter who doesn't get enough accolades. I would like to see him and Morales at 140. That would be a great fight.
Sister Sledge is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 06:09 AM   #264
sweet_scientist
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,870
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Another close fight that could have gone either way for mine. Talk of a robbery is way off.

I actually had Pac winning by a couple of points 116-114 (Pac winning rounds 1,6,10,11 and 12, with rounds 3 and 8 being even) but I can see how some might have edged it to Marquez.

What I have to say is Manny Pacquiao is a fantastic athlete but as far as boxing skill goes, he would have to be one of the worst amongst the ATGs.

Absolutely no infighting skills, falling in and amatuerishly covering up after he gets his shots off, no ability to feint an inside move and then stand in to counter Marquez's counters. He hardly threw a single body shot despite Marquez being on aging legs. Just a really poor show of skill for mine.

Marquez fought well, but it was no 'masterpiece' and many a past great would have easily disposed of him tonight. Pacquiao simply fought a dumb as well as a embarrassing fight skill wise.
sweet_scientist is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 06:10 AM   #265
sweet_scientist
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,870
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
When the search engine comes in after the W/E I need to quote everyone who said they'd rate him over Morales/MAB if he won tonight. I rated him over them before this.

Yes rating him as the Greatest Mexican of All Time is a massive accolade but I think he now becomes worthy of discussion in that bracket. He's been the best from 126-135 and now beat Pacquaio imo 3 times. I don't think Chavez could beat Pacquaio. Bare in mind he's 38 years old and just gone up 2 divisions to beat most people's P4P no1
Chavez would push both JMM and Pac's shit in on the same night.

Unlike Pacquiao, he knows what a body punch is, and he knows how to stand in and take a shot in order to deliver a better placed one back.
sweet_scientist is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 06:16 AM   #266
prime
BOX! Writing Champion
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Guadalajara, Jal., Mexico
Posts: 1,229
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxed Ears View Post
Wait, struggling mightily with the best you face is...what? Uncommon in some way? Did Ray Robinson struggle with his best like Basilio, Gavilan, LaMotta...? Did Louis struggle with his best like Walcott and Schmeling? Did Duran struggle mightily with Hagler, Hearns, Benitez and Leonard at any time? I thought it was obvious that you ordinarily struggle with the best you face, if the group is at all special.

And, for the record, as strange as it might sound, while Marquez has been aging...so has Manny. Manny's been in brutal war after brutal war throughout his career. He also had his date with greatness against a prime Barrera and I don't remember him being found wanting there at all. Do you? How are you shoving in the Morales fight and leaving out the Barrera fight so conveniently? I sense a bias here. He's been fighting the best for most of his career, and usually wins. Like most of the top greats. I rate him in the top 20-30. I think regardless of one match-up with one fighter, we can pretty much say he's one of the greatest. I don't see how it's even particularly debatable at this point, unless your memory is rather short. The kind that forgets wins like, say, the Barrera win, for instance.
The greatest leave no doubt they are the best in their time. Your examples do you in: Robinson bested his opposition, as did Louis. Pacquiao hasn't.

I will indulge you and state the obvious:

Barrera was past his best, having already come back from retirement and had had two wars with Morales.

Morales, after three wars with Barrera, upset a hard-charging Pacquiao in their first meeting. Yeah, yeah, the other two later fights. You must be honest and admit that Morales was at the end of his career while Pacquiao was hitting his prime.

And the 36 rounds with Márquez are now an eternal cloud of doubt over PacMan's legacy.

As things stand now, Mayweather, another Pacquiao contemporary and clear victor over Márquez, can himself be regarded above PacMan. Mayweather has similarities to Márquez and should be favored over Manny in a hypothetical matchup.

All this is just discussing PacMan's contemporaries. Where is PacMan's Tyson-like Reign of Terror over boxing? Where is his Bum-of-the-Month Club? Where are the calls to bring an old champ out of retirement to erase his golden smile?

Nowhere. He has enough facing the greats of his time. He may still prove himself but he has a lot of work to do.

Pac is great. I actually rank him similarly to you. But he is no Harry Greb.
prime is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 06:30 AM   #267
Boxed Ears
Smugly Savvy Feelings
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pazinfowit, Esperantia
Posts: 24,822
vCash: 26665
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by prime View Post
The greatest leave no doubt they are the best in their time. Your examples do you in: Robinson bested his opposition, as did Louis. Pacquiao hasn't.

I will indulge you and state the obvious:

Barrera was past his best, having already come back from retirement and had had two wars with Morales.



Morales, after three wars with Barrera, upset a hard-charging Pacquiao in their first meeting. Yeah, yeah, the other two later fights. You must be honest and admit that Morales was at the end of his career while Pacquiao was hitting his prime.

And the 36 rounds with Márquez are now an eternal cloud of doubt over PacMan's legacy.

As things stand now, Mayweather, another Pacquiao contemporary and clear victor over Márquez, can himself be regarded above PacMan. Mayweather has similarities to Márquez and should be favored over Manny in a hypothetical matchup.


All this is just discussing PacMan's contemporaries. Where is PacMan's Tyson-like Reign of Terror over boxing? Where is his Bum-of-the-Month Club? Where are the calls to bring an old champ out of retirement to erase his golden smile?


Nowhere. He has enough facing the greats of his time. He may still prove himself but he has a lot of work to do.

Pac is great. I actually rank him similarly to you. But he is no Harry Greb.

In red: Then what the **** are we arguing about, as I never said he was in that league. Were you taking the original position that NOW we know he wasn't? Because who, especially on classic, was saying he was?

In green: You're stating that Barrera was past it when Pac fought him and it was obvious? ****'s sake.

In orange:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


In red: Well, actually he did best Morales, two of three, despite where he was at in his career, did best Barrera, two of two and including his result with Marquez, well, none of the group of Barrera/Morales/Marquez and Pacquiao have done better than Pacquiao, in total. So, I'd say, yeah, he actually proved the best there, of his peers, and quite obviously. But, since I didn't say I rank him with Robinson or Louis, I don't know why we're bringing that up, as I only replied to your "mightily struggling" with your best opposition reasoning but wasn't directly comparing them.


In pink:

As far as May and Pac, their match doesn't decide anything for best of the generation. They only matched up in the same weight class in what seems to be the final few years of both of their respective careers, with Mayweather either in retirement or on vacation for much of that time and Pac's simply done more to rank higher. Clearly, I'd say. Although, I favour Mayweather in that match, H2H. For whatever that might be worth. In theory.

In blue:

Only in the way that Ali's rounds with Norton have the same effect on him. In other words, they don't, really.
Boxed Ears is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 06:38 AM   #268
Flea Man
มวยสากล
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: @ferociousflea
Posts: 39,853
vCash: 75
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Morales was clearly at the end of his career, years ago, when he's arguably beaten a top 5 fighter at 140 this year?

Prime: your post reeks of bias. Floyd cannot be considered higher than Pac based on the JMM fight. How decisive was he in the 1st Castillo fight and against an ageing Oscar?
Flea Man is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 06:44 AM   #269
prime
BOX! Writing Champion
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Guadalajara, Jal., Mexico
Posts: 1,229
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet_scientist View Post
Another close fight that could have gone either way for mine. Talk of a robbery is way off.

I actually had Pac winning by a couple of points 116-114 (Pac winning rounds 1,6,10,11 and 12, with rounds 3 and 8 being even) but I can see how some might have edged it to Marquez.

What I have to say is Manny Pacquiao is a fantastic athlete but as far as boxing skill goes, he would have to be one of the worst amongst the ATGs.

Absolutely no infighting skills, falling in and amatuerishly covering up after he gets his shots off, no ability to feint an inside move and then stand in to counter Marquez's counters. He hardly threw a single body shot despite Marquez being on aging legs. Just a really poor show of skill for mine.

Marquez fought well, but it was no 'masterpiece' and many a past great would have easily disposed of him tonight. Pacquiao simply fought a dumb as well as a embarrassing fight skill wise.
And yet you scored it for Pacquiao.

No. Márquez won last night. You have well described why, whereas, technically, Márquez fought a disciplined counterpuncher's fight, visually, landed the most telling head and body shots and, morally, was the victor at the final bell.

The constant pivoting, tight guard, crisp varied counters and left jab leads frustrated Manny all night.

Who made his opponent look amateurish? Who got in the better blows? Who imposed his style? Who knew he had beat his man? Who does the world by majority agree today was the winner last night?

That man is Juan Manuel Márquez.
prime is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 06:57 AM   #270
sweet_scientist
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,870
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by prime View Post
And yet you scored it for Pacquiao.

No. Márquez won last night. You have well described why, whereas, technically, Márquez fought a disciplined counterpuncher's fight, visually, landed the most telling head and body shots and, morally, was the victor at the final bell.

The constant pivoting, tight guard, crisp varied counters and left jab leads frustrated Manny all night.

Who made his opponent look amateurish? Who got in the better blows? Who imposed his style? Who knew he had beat his man? Who does the world by majority agree today was the winner last night?

That man is Juan Manuel Márquez.
I thought Pacquaio edged him through dint of his much greater energy and output.

Marquez did make Pac look bad though - I feel Pac made himself look bad to some extent too however, through his inherent limitations.

As far as the more telling blows, perhaps Marquez landed the slightly more telling shots, whilst Pac landed more. I don't think Marquez's shots were as telling as is being made out though.

The crowd was clearly with Marquez, which emphasised his punches more, but Pac was doing a lot of work which wasn't being acknowledged by the crowd and commentators.

You felt Marquez won? Hey, I'm not going to argue it. I thought it was close enough.

Am I going to fool myself that Marquez put on a masterful display though? Come on now. Buddy Mcgirt would have shut him out
sweet_scientist is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013