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View Poll Results: Juan Manuel Marquez: Great fighter or All-Time Great fighter?
Yes, I consider him to be an ATG 35 53.85%
No, he's just very good. 30 46.15%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-15-2012, 04:55 PM   #376
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Not ATG

very close but I don't think he makes it to that level
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:15 PM   #377
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by orriray59 View Post
I never said that, or anything like it. I have no qualms if you don't consider JMM an ATG, but you act as if to be considered one you have to be around the same level as men like Armstrong or Robinson.

Most people would consider, say, Jake LaMotta an ATG. Or Ricardo Lopez. These fighters are all-time greats, yet respectively not on the same tier as a guy like Harry Greb.

What I'm saying is there have been much, much lesser fighters than the top 10-esque all timers that are frequently labeled as an ATG.
Good post.

Lemme beat you on Fight Night again.
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:46 PM   #378
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Hell, yeah. Juan Manuel Márquez is an all-time great.

He destroyed an all-time great in Manny Pacquiao.

Joe Frazier cemented his place as an all-time great by beating Ali. Same difference.
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:28 PM   #379
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Let's not get so carried away by his ko of Pac...Manny aint the fighter he used to be...and though I give JMM his deserved props for landing that big right hand, he's hardly an ATG,...like I said, he's lower case (meaning in weight division) of Jersey Joe Walcott. He got umpteen shots at a fading great and finally landed a big shot and won. Just like JJW finally landing that left against Charles. Did that make Walcott an atg? Or even a better fighter than Charles? Calling him the "greatest Mexican fighter ever" and an ATG is stretching a bit. I like him and consider him an excellent fighter, but otherwise, what's he done to brand him with atg status? He's an overachiever if anything. A dramatic ko dosen't lend you the mantle of greatness."ATG" is a vague and nebulous title nowadays.
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:34 PM   #380
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by prime View Post
Hell, yeah. Juan Manuel Márquez is an all-time great.

He destroyed an all-time great in Manny Pacquiao.

Joe Frazier cemented his place as an all-time great by beating Ali. Same difference.
Ali was far closer to prime than was Manny in that 4th fight with JMM. That disputed loss in Pac's previous fight should be an indicator that he's slipped.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:11 PM   #381
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Cobra, if Marquez threw substantially less punches would he meet your criteria? [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:57 PM   #382
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

JMM > Baby Face/El Terrible.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:57 AM   #383
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by Boxed Ears View Post
Cobra, if Marquez threw substantially less punches would he meet your criteria? [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
You mean if he emulated the Master of Negative Creativity himself?
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:59 AM   #384
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

When you think of JMM, think "lower case JJW". That's what he is....and like I said earler, that's pretty gosh-darned good in itself, and an accurate assessment of JMM.
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:31 PM   #385
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by red cobra View Post
When you think of JMM, think "lower case JJW". That's what he is....and like I said earler, that's pretty gosh-darned good in itself, and an accurate assessment of JMM.
No. When you think of Márquez, think that over 42 rounds he bested a guy some have called--however unwarranted or not--the greatest pugilist of all time. That is no fluke. THAT is perspective for a more accurate assessment.
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:36 PM   #386
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by prime View Post
No. When you think of Márquez, think that over 42 rounds he bested a guy some have called--however unwarranted or not--the greatest pugilist of all time. That is no fluke. THAT is perspective for a more accurate assessment.
Your whole point is based on that fallacy.
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:45 PM   #387
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

A KO win over the most accomplished fighter of his era (Manny's faded, fine, but he's still excellent and JMM proved he could stand on equal footing with the better version anyway), absolutely top notch longevity, a string of solid wins, success through 4 weight divisions, etc.

Yeah, I've got him as an ATG. Definitely. As far as Mexican ATG's go, I'd have him right next to Sanchez, honestly, and maybe even a spot higher. Top 5, there.
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Old 12-17-2012, 08:42 AM   #388
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by red cobra View Post
Let's not get so carried away by his ko of Pac...Manny aint the fighter he used to be...and though I give JMM his deserved props for landing that big right hand, he's hardly an ATG,...like I said, he's lower case (meaning in weight division) of Jersey Joe Walcott. He got umpteen shots at a fading great and finally landed a big shot and won. Just like JJW finally landing that left against Charles. Did that make Walcott an atg? Or even a better fighter than Charles? Calling him the "greatest Mexican fighter ever" and an ATG is stretching a bit. I like him and consider him an excellent fighter, but otherwise, what's he done to brand him with atg status? He's an overachiever if anything. A dramatic ko dosen't lend you the mantle of greatness."ATG" is a vague and nebulous title nowadays.
You clearly don't follow modern boxing or Marquez career too closely RC, here's a man who cleared out featherweight, beat the best at super featherweight and lightweight and beat his greatest rival of his era 4 times out of 4

Marquez>Monzon
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:53 AM   #389
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

He did not 'clear out featherweight'!!!

He did not beat Manny '4 out of 4' either!

****s sake.
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:16 AM   #390
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Marquez above 130 is one of the most genuinely overrated fighters of all-time for me.

Still very good, mind, but still.
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