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Old 09-27-2010, 09:10 PM   #226
Bill Butcher
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by teeto View Post
Roberto Duran eats Willie Pep on one of these lists in my humble opinion
Pep would outbox him if both were the same size IMO

This is the thing about p4p lists, its all personal opinion, you`ll never see 2 identical top 10 lists I dont think.
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Old 09-27-2010, 09:41 PM   #227
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

I rate Pep above Duran. He breezed through a very large and surprisingly talented bunch of featherweight and lightweight contenders, going 135-1-1 over the first third of his career. Anything after that was just a bonus.

A similar phenomenon - Benny Leonard. He makes a higher spot because his competition was slightly better overall.

Duran's great because he used to be a miracle man; and there's a solid lightweight reign to back it up. #8, ahead of Archie Moore - so no complaints.
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Old 09-27-2010, 09:44 PM   #228
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Yeah thats true that he was fighting in the heat also, but he was doing **** all through out the fight while Robinson on the otherhand was boxing his head off throwing combinations all night using up energy.

Was he boxing, running, or dancing?

And was this smart. Maybe, just maybe, if he was too tired to throw punches, maybe he shouldnt have thrown so many and shouldnt have moved so often. And it isnt just the heat that caused him to collapse. Robinson could have trained and run marathons in that heat. The big shots Maxim landed did have some form of effect and wear him down (not that Maxim was necessarilly the biggest hitter ever). But these sorts of things collapses from exhaustion dont happen unless the other fighter lands strong solid blows. That is what obviously happened here. Everyone says that Robinson was outboxing him, and it may have appeared that way, but the result doesnt really seem to suggest this was the case. Sometimes one blow can be better than 10 blows.

Maxim deserved the victory, end of story. Whether he could repeat it, well that might be a different story, particularly if the fight was indoors, but it certainly isnt beyond the realms of possibility.
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Old 09-27-2010, 09:56 PM   #229
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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I rate Pep above Duran. He breezed through a very large and surprisingly talented bunch of featherweight and lightweight contenders, going 135-1-1 over the first third of his career. Anything after that was just a bonus.

A similar phenomenon - Benny Leonard. He makes a higher spot because his competition was slightly better overall.

Duran's great because he used to be a miracle man; and there's a solid lightweight reign to back it up. #8, ahead of Archie Moore - so no complaints.
Where do you place Mickey Walker?
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Old 09-27-2010, 10:27 PM   #230
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Duran has one win better, Ali has the depth.
How?
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Old 09-27-2010, 10:43 PM   #231
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Where do you place Mickey Walker?
High. The next seven are Walker, McLarnin, Ali, Louis, Fitzsimmons, Canzoneri, Gans.
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Old 09-27-2010, 11:12 PM   #232
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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The post was not about being a contrarian.

It was about objectively considering the actual, instead of the assumed, greatness of the biggest cultural icon since Elvis.
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The fact that ESB classic is resistant to the Ali-cult that has long-since taken over the USA adds to its credibility.
Not when it's an effort to go too far on the other way. And that's what's clearly happening here. Duran, Pep, and Ali are close to split. No doubt about it. And then is little reason to have Burley ahead of Ali unless you take into the account the praise he gets from guys like Futch.

You call it objectivity, but others here think it's over-reactionary. And that is not to say you're guilty of this, but this is general talk.
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Old 09-27-2010, 11:13 PM   #233
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Basically it's a sin to be passionate about a popular fighter. How dare I buy into the glitz and hype. Such a sheep I am.
It's a weird mentality Nobody is saying Ali is the one and only almighty one, but it seems like that's how some feel.
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Old 09-27-2010, 11:56 PM   #234
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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How?
He beat better fighters, and more of them, obviously. That's my view anyway.
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Old 09-28-2010, 12:02 AM   #235
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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The same way that historians rank emperors, generals, presidents, and the like.

I used to have that same line of thinking as you. Then I started digging up the record and the names on that record of his, and reading the reports of his contemporaries -including fellow fighters who saw him or fought him. Do it, and what appears murky to you know will become clear. You may have to make the honest, though painful choice that I was forced to make and place Greb over Robinson.
Naw naw, it's all very well and good giving him his dues, but based on your scoring system, your list is heavily head to head weighted. I don't understand how an opinion can be made on Greb. You're just using other people's opinions.
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Old 09-28-2010, 12:08 AM   #236
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Some (most) people have such shaky ideas.
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Old 09-28-2010, 04:14 AM   #237
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
Pep would outbox him if both were the same size IMO

This is the thing about p4p lists, its all personal opinion, you`ll never see 2 identical top 10 lists I dont think.
On the first point,- Yeah maybe, hardly a measure of where they should rank on a list like this though. Like i keep saying, i'm aware of how good Willie Pep was and i don't think he's overrated as a boxer.
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Old 09-28-2010, 04:42 AM   #238
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
High. The next seven are Walker, McLarnin, Ali, Louis, Fitzsimmons, Canzoneri, Gans.
Ah, thanks. The names I have expected.
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Old 09-28-2010, 04:53 AM   #239
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

MY OFFICIAL TOP 10 OF ALL TIME


1 - Fernando Vargas
2 - Ricardo Mayorga
3 - Micky Ward
4 - Erick Morales
5 - Wlad Klitschko
6 - Miguel Cotto
7 - Edison Miranda
8 - Librado Andrade
9 - Mike Tyson
10 - Kassim Ouma
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Old 09-28-2010, 04:54 AM   #240
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

damnit ignore my list i see its a p4p list not a favorites one
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