Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-28-2010, 05:15 AM   #241
Rumsfeld
Moderator
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Go to the Mushroom Mag!
Posts: 18,735
vCash: 655
Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirk View Post
MY OFFICIAL TOP 10 OF ALL TIME

1 - Fernando Vargas
2 - Ricardo Mayorga
3 - Micky Ward
4 - Erick Morales
5 - Wlad Klitschko
6 - Miguel Cotto
7 - Edison Miranda
8 - Librado Andrade
9 - Mike Tyson
10 - Kassim Ouma
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirk View Post
damnit ignore my list i see its a p4p list not a favorites one
I'd still sooner include your list than frankenfrank's.

Rumsfeld is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 09-28-2010, 07:06 AM   #242
Stonehands89
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,269
vCash: 1000
Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
Not when it's an effort to go too far on the other way. And that's what's clearly happening here. Duran, Pep, and Ali are close to split. No doubt about it. And then is little reason to have Burley ahead of Ali unless you take into the account the praise he gets from guys like Futch.

You call it objectivity, but others here think it's over-reactionary. And that is not to say you're guilty of this, but this is general talk.
It's all debatable. That's the point of the whole exercise.

The assertion that Ali's -fistic- legacy has been inflated by the American media and baby-boomers who consider him a hero is well-confirmed by the culture at large. The wide insistence on considering "impact on society" as part of the criteria is a poorly-disguised vehicle to catapult him too high. One the other hand, your assertion that anyone who doesn't include Ali in the top ten is "over-reactionary" may be applicable to a few posters on this site.

One problem (if it is so) is large, the other (if it is so) is microscopic. Name another published top ten list that doesn't include Ali in the top ten. I can think of a grand total of ....one. And the rationale for that placement is too much to write that loan list off as "reactionary."
Stonehands89 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 07:09 AM   #243
Stonehands89
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,269
vCash: 1000
Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by manbearpig View Post
Naw naw, it's all very well and good giving him his dues, but based on your scoring system, your list is heavily head to head weighted. I don't understand how an opinion can be made on Greb. You're just using other people's opinions.
I'm using primary sources. And to dismiss Greb because you didn't see him with your own eyes is too simple and too convenient.

You keep making the claim that the list is head-to-head weighted. How so?
Stonehands89 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 07:42 AM   #244
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,203
vCash: 1000
Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post
It's all debatable. That's the point of the whole exercise.

The assertion that Ali's -fistic- legacy has been inflated by the American media and baby-boomers who consider him a hero is well-confirmed by the culture at large. The wide insistence on considering "impact on society" as part of the criteria is a poorly-disguised vehicle to catapult him too high. One the other hand, your assertion that anyone who doesn't include Ali in the top ten is "over-reactionary" may be applicable to a few posters on this site.

One problem (if it is so) is large, the other (if it is so) is microscopic. Name another published top ten list that doesn't include Ali in the top ten. I can think of a grand total of ....one. And the rationale for that placement is too much to write that loan list off as "reactionary."
This all rings pretty true. But did you have Burley ahead of Ali? That's one pill I don't think I'd be able to swallow.
Bokaj is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 07:49 AM   #245
bodhi
So I can die easy ...
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,491
vCash: 1337
Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
This all rings pretty true. But did you have Burley ahead of Ali? That's one pill I don't think I'd be able to swallow.
I agree. I like Stonehandīs list, especially his criterias and that itīs very well researched and explained but I very much think he gives Burley too much credit.
bodhi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 07:53 AM   #246
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,203
vCash: 1000
Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

My criteria:

1. Record. Wins and losses. Opposition, but also size and age difference (distance from prime) are important factors

2. Perfomances. How impressive were the wins and how wide/close were the losses? Preferred source for this is film, but if not avalaible I'll go for first hand accounts (match reports).

3. ...

4. ...

5. General assesement of the fighter from contemprorary sources. Due diligence is important here and that's why it's a lesser criteria. For example, how much weight should I put on Dundee rating Ali ahead of Leonard? Not much, considering how he phrased it.


From that:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Willie Pep
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Muhammad Ali
7. Sam Langford
8. Roberto Duran
9. Joe Gans
10. Joe Louis

Last edited by Bokaj; 09-29-2010 at 05:02 PM.
Bokaj is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 07:59 AM   #247
manbearpig
A Scottish Noob
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1,521
vCash: 1185
Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post
I'm using primary sources. And to dismiss Greb because you didn't see him with your own eyes is too simple and too convenient.

You keep making the claim that the list is head-to-head weighted. How so?
Because you're judging them on your perceived attributes.
manbearpig is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 08:43 AM   #248
Popkins
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 13,401
vCash: 1000
Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
This is a P4P list, not heavyweights only.
Yes, but a heavyweight is a great heavyweight on the basis of what he achieves compared to other heavyweights. A welterweight is a great welterweight on the basis of what he achieves compared to other welterweights. A long-time dominant heavyweight champion such as Lennox Lewis or Larry Holmes is often looked upon more favourably than a welterweight/middleweight who incurred some losses whilst battling in a very competitive division, because the heavyweight fighter stood out in a weak era and beat everyone available in a weak era, whereas a welterweight/middleweight did not achieve such things, despite facing consistently tougher comp. Lewis or Holmes did not face opposition to match the opposition faced by guys like Bivins and Marshall, yet they are frequently ranked higher by history because Lewis and Holmes are more integral to heavyweight history and achieved more at their own weight than Bivins or Marshall did at any weight they competed at.
Popkins is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 08:49 AM   #249
Popkins
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 13,401
vCash: 1000
Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

I think most people on here concur that the top 5 fighters are:

Langford, Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Charles

And that you can mix n match the order of those five, but those are the five?
Popkins is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 08:49 AM   #250
Popkins
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 13,401
vCash: 1000
Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Does anyone have Jimmy McLarnin in their top 10?
Popkins is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 08:52 AM   #251
bodhi
So I can die easy ...
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,491
vCash: 1337
Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popkins View Post
I think most people on here concur that the top 5 fighters are:

Langford, Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Charles

And that you can mix n match the order of those five, but those are the five?
Bob Fitzsimmons belongs to that group IMO.

I saw nobody mention McLarnin but I saw Ross and Canzoneri.
bodhi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 09:07 AM   #252
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodhi View Post
I agree. I like Stonehandīs list, especially his criterias and that itīs very well researched and explained but I very much think he gives Burley too much credit.
Yep, that's the only flaw in his ratings. Holman Williams beat more rated fighters than Burley did; but I bet he's quite a few places down the list.

Burley on my list might make #40, when you consider fighters like Billy Conn, John Henry Lewis, Gene Tunney and Michael Spinks might also deserve a place in front of him (and that's just a few light heavyweights).
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 11:39 AM   #253
Bill Butcher
Erik`El Terrible`Morales
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Phoenix Marie`s ass, Fritzl Residence, Glasgow, Scotland.
Posts: 14,262
vCash: 1000
Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popkins View Post
I think most people on here concur that the top 5 fighters are:

Langford, Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Charles

And that you can mix n match the order of those five, but those are the five?
Its not all about whats written down on paper , at least not for me, I need to have visual evidence that justifies the written down stuff.
Langford & Charles have shit footage, especially Langford & Greb (no1 on a lot of lists) has ZERO footage.

Robinson & Armstrong do make my top 5 tho, the others are Ali, Pep & Duran.

Ps. The amount of top 10 lists on here that dont have Muhammad Ali is ridiculous IMO.
Bill Butcher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 11:47 AM   #254
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,203
vCash: 1000
Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
Ps. The amount of top 10 lists on here that dont have Muhammad Ali is ridiculous IMO.
Aside from Stonehands, who else is there who excludes him? Personally, I think it's more pertinent whether he should be top 5 than if he should be top 10.
Bokaj is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 11:49 AM   #255
TheGreatA
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,098
vCash: 1000
Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
Its not all about whats written down on paper , at least not for me, I need to have visual evidence that justifies the written down stuff.
Langford & Charles have shit footage, especially Langford & Greb (no1 on a lot of lists) has ZERO footage.

Robinson & Armstrong do make my top 5 tho, the others are Ali, Pep & Duran.

Ps. The amount of top 10 lists on here that dont have Muhammad Ali is ridiculous IMO.
TheGreatA is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013