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Old 10-15-2010, 05:25 PM   #316
PetethePrince
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
I used to think Boilermaker was one of our best posters.
Yeah, I just deleted my post. Wasn't worth it, but nevertheless extremely disappointed with that list.
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Old 10-15-2010, 05:27 PM   #317
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by ironchamp View Post
I base the list on fighters who've demonstrated remarkable skill throughout their career and gave more credit to fighters who were able to successfully campaign at higher weights.


1. Sam Langford
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Sugar Ray Robinson
5. Sugar Ray Leonard
6. Bob Fitzsimmons
7. Roy Jones Jr.
8. Roberto Duran
9. Joe Louis
10. Pernell Whitaker
Than you missed one guy.

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Old 10-15-2010, 06:34 PM   #318
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by El Bujia View Post
It's quite obvious he doesn't even believe his own list. He's just putting it out there to see if he can adequately defend it. The problem is that noone takes it seriously enough to get into a full on debate over it, so he just ends up looking like a troll.
Wrong.

I will admit that i dont have a set in stone top 10, under any criteria. There has simply been too many good fighters.

In fact anyone who thinks that you can pick 10 fighters as the standout top 10 from all the fighters who ever lived and that you can say with certainty that more than a couple of fighters (I would say just one) must be there, is simply a dill.

And a top 10 pound for pound list depends totally on the criteria you consider most important in your ranking. For example, if you consider dominance at your own weight division and establishing a legacy at this division, you could very easily have a list which includes 10 names like say: Monzon, Hagler, Louis, Ali, Jimmy Barry, Panama Al Brown, McAuliffe, Johns L Sullivan, Robinson and many, many others.

If you are impressed by short, explosive dominating runs then guys like Terry McGovern, Mike Tyson, Jim Jeffries, Marciano, Henry Armstrong, Ketchell, maybe even Darcy and many others are going to feature highly.

For opinion by peers then Dempsey, Jackson, Sullivan, Benny Leonard, Willie Pep and many others become names under consideration.

If you like longevity and a fighters ability to keep coming back and proving people wrong by winning titles then Jack Johnson, Muhammed Ali, Evander Holyfield, Sugar Ray Robinson, George Foreman and many others must appear on the list.

The particular list i put forth for this thread was based on head to head and ability to raise through the ranks, as this seemed to be the criteria most people were taking in their lists. AS stated, when you get down the bottom of the list.

If you like level of competition and durability shown, then you cant go past guys like Ali, Greb, Robinson, Joey Maxim.

The only common demonimator who appears realistically in the top 10 of every single list is Bob Fitzsimmons. And usually when you look at things objectively he is right near or at the top. And this is why I say that it is very hard to take any list without Bob Fitzsimmons in it seriously.

Most lists are very much influenced by the media, which is why most people will tell you that Muhammed Ali must be the greatest heavyweight and Sugar Ray Robinson must be the greatest pound for pound boxer. Neither is true. Ray may have been the greatest welterweight ever, he was not the greatest middleweight ever in terms of performance at that weight. In fact, imo, his claim as the greatest pound for pound fighter ever rests solely on his welterweight career with just a little help from the middleweight part of his career and you need to forget about his light heavyweight career. It is possible that this is enough, but i am dropping him further and further down lists, the more i think about it. I will admit that when you view film of him, you start to put him back towards the top, but film isnt everything.

I havent looked at your particular list and started to criticise. What criteria did you value when you made your list?
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Old 10-16-2010, 05:32 AM   #319
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Film isn't everything. ****ing hell.
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Old 10-16-2010, 06:30 AM   #320
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
W
Most lists are very much influenced by the media, which is why most people will tell you that Muhammed Ali must be the greatest heavyweight and Sugar Ray Robinson must be the greatest pound for pound boxer.
It's perfectly reasonable, the media are quite right.



Quote:
Neither is true.
Quote:
In fact, imo, his claim as the greatest pound for pound fighter ever rests solely on his welterweight career with just a little help from the middleweight part of his career and you need to forget about his light heavyweight career. It is possible that this is enough
These two statements are contradictory.


Quote:
Ray may have been the greatest welterweight ever, he was not the greatest middleweight ever in terms of performance at that weight.
I disagree. I think he is the greatest MW in terms of performance...just not in terms of legacy, although his legacy at MW is a special one.
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Old 10-16-2010, 06:33 AM   #321
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
It's perfectly reasonable, the media are quite right.
It is. The media is not necessarily right. Robinsonīs and Aliīs claims as the greatest p4p or at hw are as good as anybodys but IMO neither is such an easy and clear pick.
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Old 10-16-2010, 09:34 AM   #322
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
Wrong.

I will admit that i dont have a set in stone top 10, under any criteria. There has simply been too many good fighters.

In fact anyone who thinks that you can pick 10 fighters as the standout top 10 from all the fighters who ever lived and that you can say with certainty that more than a couple of fighters (I would say just one) must be there, is simply a dill.

And a top 10 pound for pound list depends totally on the criteria you consider most important in your ranking. For example, if you consider dominance at your own weight division and establishing a legacy at this division, you could very easily have a list which includes 10 names like say: Monzon, Hagler, Louis, Ali, Jimmy Barry, Panama Al Brown, McAuliffe, Johns L Sullivan, Robinson and many, many others.

If you are impressed by short, explosive dominating runs then guys like Terry McGovern, Mike Tyson, Jim Jeffries, Marciano, Henry Armstrong, Ketchell, maybe even Darcy and many others are going to feature highly.

For opinion by peers then Dempsey, Jackson, Sullivan, Benny Leonard, Willie Pep and many others become names under consideration.

If you like longevity and a fighters ability to keep coming back and proving people wrong by winning titles then Jack Johnson, Muhammed Ali, Evander Holyfield, Sugar Ray Robinson, George Foreman and many others must appear on the list.

The particular list i put forth for this thread was based on head to head and ability to raise through the ranks, as this seemed to be the criteria most people were taking in their lists. AS stated, when you get down the bottom of the list.

If you like level of competition and durability shown, then you cant go past guys like Ali, Greb, Robinson, Joey Maxim.

The only common demonimator who appears realistically in the top 10 of every single list is Bob Fitzsimmons. And usually when you look at things objectively he is right near or at the top. And this is why I say that it is very hard to take any list without Bob Fitzsimmons in it seriously.

Most lists are very much influenced by the media, which is why most people will tell you that Muhammed Ali must be the greatest heavyweight and Sugar Ray Robinson must be the greatest pound for pound boxer. Neither is true. Ray may have been the greatest welterweight ever, he was not the greatest middleweight ever in terms of performance at that weight. In fact, imo, his claim as the greatest pound for pound fighter ever rests solely on his welterweight career with just a little help from the middleweight part of his career and you need to forget about his light heavyweight career. It is possible that this is enough, but i am dropping him further and further down lists, the more i think about it. I will admit that when you view film of him, you start to put him back towards the top, but film isnt everything.

I havent looked at your particular list and started to criticise. What criteria did you value when you made your list?
The above post is why you are, indeed, an excellent poster. I agree with every single word.

My list? It was based on the "what do I feel like today?" criteria. I don't take lists anymore seriously than you. I just do them on occasion for a bit of fun.
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Old 10-16-2010, 01:54 PM   #323
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Billy Conn was always slightly scared of his father-in-law. For this reason, I am rating him #328.

Young Corbett III did a nice omelette; he's in at #21.
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Old 10-16-2010, 02:54 PM   #324
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Bob Fitzsimmons fast becoming one of the more overrated fighters in the classic section.
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Old 10-17-2010, 02:23 AM   #325
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

1. Benny Leonard
2. Prenell Whitaker
3. Ray Robinson
4. Ray Leonard
5. Barney Ross
6. Thomas Hearns
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Charlie Burley
9. Muhammad Ali
10. Joe Louis
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Old 10-17-2010, 02:32 AM   #326
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
Bob Fitzsimmons fast becoming one of the more overrated fighters in the classic section.
The man clearly accomplished an eye-popping feat in his career by winning the HW title, defeated the father of modern boxing, knocked heavyweights while weighing far below that weight, and was an incredible feinter and sharpshooter.

He has to be included in the top 20, he was the ****ing man.
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Old 10-17-2010, 02:43 AM   #327
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by Swarmer View Post
The man clearly accomplished an eye-popping feat in his career by winning the HW title, defeated the father of modern boxing, knocked heavyweights while weighing far below that weight, and was an incredible feinter and sharpshooter.

He has to be included in the top 20, he was the ****ing man.
I'm not agreeing with these top 5 placements, especially the top 3 ones. I don't see how he touches SRR, Armstrong, Greb, and even Langford especially considering the circumstance of some of the fights he had. His skills are nothing to marvel at (In comparison)
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Old 10-17-2010, 03:13 AM   #328
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
I'm not agreeing with these top 5 placements, especially the top 3 ones. I don't see how he touches SRR, Armstrong, Greb, and even Langford especially considering the circumstance of some of the fights he had. His skills are nothing to marvel at (In comparison)
Only if you ignore the era he fought in. And yes, his achievements are up there with Robinsons, actually a bit better. His resume isnīt but then we probably only know one fourth to one third of it.
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Old 10-17-2010, 03:52 AM   #329
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by bodhi View Post
Only if you ignore the era he fought in. And yes, his achievements are up there with Robinsons, actually a bit better. His resume isnīt but then we probably only know one fourth to one third of it.
In an era in which you admit you're lacking on? Not quite sure of your point, the guy was being out-boxed by Corbett before he scored the KO. Are you implying his skills are great relative to the era? Someone like Armstrong and SRR transcend eras with their skills and abilities. I strongly believe boxing started to rapid progress turn of the century and peaked probably somewhere near the 1970's.

I mean, the guy was a MW champ and the first MW champ to become HW champ in an era where there was no LHW championship (And therefore unequivocally a range of fighters that were small HWs). I recognize he's some P4P juggernaut in his time and a freakish puncher. And I know his achievements are great and unique but there's no reports that lavish his skills/abilities to someone like Greb who at least beat Tunney who looks great on film... and Tunney beat Dempsey. This tell us something transcendent about those legends.
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Old 10-17-2010, 04:41 AM   #330
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

1.Ray Robinson
2.Henry Armstrong
3.Roberto Duran
4.Willie Peop
5.Muhamad Ali
6.Sam Langford
7.Harry Greb
8.Ray Leonard
9.Ezzard Charles
10.Julio Cesar Chavez
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