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Old 10-18-2010, 05:15 PM   #391
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

I agree. Fitz even seemed to take rounds from O'Brien the second time around. But of course, his vigour let him down. I would definitely have been interested in seeing how he would have done with O'Brien over the longer distance that year earlier.
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Old 10-18-2010, 05:33 PM   #392
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by El Bujia View Post
Explain.
You've proved yourself a very good analyst of fighters, style , match ups, skill sets etc and so i'm sure you can recognise that Fitzimmons comp doesn't have anywhere near the technical ability of say Barney Ross' or Benny Leonards. It was a young sport, the defensive techniques that would become so ingrained were sorely lacking and yet we gape at a very hard puncher wearing 5 or 6 oz gloves scoring these KO's? Is it even boxing at all?

The Corbett fight for instance, Mcgrain argued I think that such a stoppage was one of the best wins ever. Stopping his man with a single shot, well there have been numerous one punch knockouts of top fighters since then, what is so remarkable about that victory which makes it one of the greatest ever? I don't see Bob or Corbett displaying the level of skill seen in fights of Gavilan, Duran, Napoles etc etc and the list goes on.

But here we come to the crux of the question, you will point out Bobs longevity, dominance over said opposition and three championships (as they were back then) for the difference between the light heavy and heavyweight championships is pretty blurred. So if it is Bobs dominance that has him rated so highly then why is Manny Pacquiao not a top ten ATG, or Chavez, or RICARDO LOPEZ.

I'm not going to get into a protracted arguement here but its obvious to me that Fitzimmons competition was not to the standard of other top ten ATG's and although I to place him in the 15 - 20 range if you can convince me that he deserves a ranking of FIVE then hats off to you.
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Old 10-18-2010, 05:40 PM   #393
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YMcgrain argued I think that such a stoppage was one of the best wins ever. Stopping his man with a single shot, well there have been numerous one punch knockouts of top fighters since then, what is so remarkable about that victory which makes it one of the greatest ever?.

It is a super-middleweight knocking out the best heavyweight, also likely the best boxer, in the world with a single punch. It's one of the greatest ever because NOTHING remotely like it has happened before or since.


You're comparing eras like for like. Of course they are different. Compared to his peers, Fitzsimmons was a God, just like the other pound for pound greats.
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Old 10-18-2010, 05:57 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by ricardoparker93 View Post
You've proved yourself a very good analyst of fighters, style , match ups, skill sets etc and so i'm sure you can recognise that Fitzimmons comp doesn't have anywhere near the technical ability of say Barney Ross' or Benny Leonards.

It was a young sport, the defensive techniques that would become so ingrained were sorely lacking and yet we gape at a very hard puncher wearing 5 or 6 oz gloves scoring these KO's? Is it even boxing at all?
It was a different sport at the time. Of that I'm not going to argue. However, in the context of the times, Fitzsimmons was as dominant a champion as there's ever been. If your argument is that he fought during easier times, I'd disagree. The differing rules and regulations of the time garnered different techniques tailored to suit them. You'll notice that the sport evolved accordingly with the rule/regulation changes as necessary. That doesn't mean any particular point up to the beginnings of the modern era was weaker in the sense that the competition was less fierce. It was just as much so as many others when looked at in context, I'd say.

And if you stand by your views on the relative crudeness of the era, would it not make Fitzsimmons's achievements and abilities all the more remarkable in that he was a pioneer and a changing of the guard type of fighter? There are precious few of these throughout the sport's history, after all.

Quote:
The Corbett fight for instance, Mcgrain argued I think that such a stoppage was one of the best wins ever. Stopping his man with a single shot, well there have been numerous one punch knockouts of top fighters since then, what is so remarkable about that victory which makes it one of the greatest ever?
It was a display in patient, methodical punching more than a boxing display outright. Fitz was never going to outbox a larger technician like Corbett, so instead he relied on biding his time, taking his punishment in stride, picking his shots when they came, before finding the opening he was looking for and threading the needle for the pin point solar plexus KO. A great victory, in my opinion. Perhaps not too disimilar to an early version of Chavez/Taylor, only magnified 10 fold due to the size disparity.

Quote:
But here we come to the crux of the question, you will point out Bobs longevity, dominance over said opposition and three championships (as they were back then) for the difference between the light heavy and heavyweight championships is pretty blurred. So if it is Bobs dominance that has him rated so highly then why is Manny Pacquiao not a top ten ATG, or Chavez, or RICARDO LOPEZ.
Fitz was a natural Middle/Super Middle his entire career, fighting and finishing men outweighing him by as many as 100 pounds. He was the best fighter in the world for a period spanning over a decade, claiming the World Titles between Middleweight and Heavyweight during this period, and proving himself conclusively the best at each during a time of 8 weight classes and one World Title. What have Lopez, Chavez, or even Pacquiao done to compare? Don't disregard Fitz's physical handicap when answering.

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I'm not going to get into a protracted arguement here but its obvious to me that Fitzimmons competition was not to the standard of other top ten ATG's and although I to place him in the 15 - 20 range if you can convince me that he deserves a ranking of FIVE then hats off to you.
I suppose it all depends on how willing you are to except my response to your first two paragraphs, really.
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Old 10-18-2010, 05:57 PM   #395
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It is a super-middleweight knocking out the best heavyweight, also likely the best boxer, in the world with a single punch. It's one of the greatest ever because NOTHING remotely like it has happened before or since.


You're comparing eras like for like. Of course they are different. Compared to his peers, Fitzsimmons was a God, just like the other pound for pound greats.
The best light heavyweight knocking out the best heavyweight with a great body punch to the pit of the stomach. Great win but once again do you make allowances for Fitzimmons competition due to the era he fought in.

As for the perception of peers at the time well thats pretty much irrelevant. There are numerous cases of contempary fighters, trainers, promoters talking absolute bollocks and if we're looking at aura then where is Mike Tyson on these ATG lists
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Old 10-18-2010, 06:09 PM   #396
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by ricardoparker93 View Post

As for the perception of peers at the time well thats pretty much irrelevant. There are numerous cases of contempary fighters, trainers, promoters talking absolute bollocks and if we're looking at aura then where is Mike Tyson on these ATG lists

I'm not talking about what people said, i'm talking about the smallest HW title challenger in history becoming the best HW on the planet, i'm talking about the best MW up until that point in time losing by knockout to the same man, i'm talking about an old man adding a third title at LHW whilst past his very best.

You say the era is weak. I say you don't know the era.
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Old 10-18-2010, 07:04 PM   #397
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricardoparker93 View Post
You've proved yourself a very good analyst of fighters, style , match ups, skill sets etc and so i'm sure you can recognise that Fitzimmons comp doesn't have anywhere near the technical ability of say Barney Ross' or Benny Leonards. It was a young sport, the defensive techniques that would become so ingrained were sorely lacking and yet we gape at a very hard puncher wearing 5 or 6 oz gloves scoring these KO's? Is it even boxing at all?

The Corbett fight for instance, Mcgrain argued I think that such a stoppage was one of the best wins ever. Stopping his man with a single shot, well there have been numerous one punch knockouts of top fighters since then, what is so remarkable about that victory which makes it one of the greatest ever? I don't see Bob or Corbett displaying the level of skill seen in fights of Gavilan, Duran, Napoles etc etc and the list goes on.

But here we come to the crux of the question, you will point out Bobs longevity, dominance over said opposition and three championships (as they were back then) for the difference between the light heavy and heavyweight championships is pretty blurred. So if it is Bobs dominance that has him rated so highly then why is Manny Pacquiao not a top ten ATG, or Chavez, or RICARDO LOPEZ.

I'm not going to get into a protracted arguement here but its obvious to me that Fitzimmons competition was not to the standard of other top ten ATG's and although I to place him in the 15 - 20 range if you can convince me that he deserves a ranking of FIVE then hats off to you.
I'm with you on this one. I don't see how he's a top 3-4 guy for anyone really. His record is no where near as impressive as Langford from what I know. And him getting beaten by Corbett before getting the KO reveals a limitedness in his skills. Nothing to marvel about, regardless of how "unique" of an achievement it is. I don't rank by unique achievements, unless it's like someone holding 3 titles at once (But a win is a win). Liston blowing Patterson out in the 1st round twice is more "unique" but Foreman doing this to Frazier in the 2nd round is much more impressive because Frazier is a much better more proven HW. Thus, "Uniqueness" is trivial and has no meaning as to what's far and away the better win & performance.
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Old 10-18-2010, 07:09 PM   #398
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Ranking him in the top 10 is one thing. I think the guy fits fine somewhere in your top 20. Not really seeing this top 5 stuff. Langford, Greb, Armstrong, and SRR have a far more impressive record to me regardless of even trying to dissect this guys skills. The weight/size disadvantage in Greb's win over Tunney is comparable to Fitz over Corbett as is. Forget about the rest of his wins at HW and his resume at LHW.
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Old 10-18-2010, 07:19 PM   #399
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Sam Langford
5. Muhammed Ali
6. Roberto Duran
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Joe Louis
9. Benny Leonard
10. Willie Pep
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Old 10-18-2010, 07:54 PM   #400
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Not what I was saying. I think his style was suited toward his abilities which seem to be limited. Obviously it has to do partly with the era but did he have the speed and athletic ability to outpoint someone like Corbett? No... and yes I know he was smaller but he was no Greb apparently.
Wrong. If you are fighting arguably the greatest fighter of all time, which he was, and you are a middleweight (not super middleweight), and you are even getting old and possibly past prime!, it might not be an easy fight, and it might take you a while to wear down your opponent, which it did (this wasnt an isolated one punch fluke). Fitzsimmons slowly slowed and wore down his opponent. Could you imagine Sugar Ray Robinson (for example) comprehensively outboxing Gene Tunney? or Ezzard Charles? Because neither was really considered as great in their time as Corbett was.

But leaving that aside, you asked for dominating performances. An OLD fitzsimmons actually dominated Jim Jeffries, an all time great superheavyweight, before being KOd. More impressive than the Maxim fight, imo.

And i think you asked for the dominating performance against an all time great that was supposedly missing. Well at his own weight and with both close to prime, he fought the all time great middleweight Jack Dempsey. He dominated, of course.
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Old 10-18-2010, 11:47 PM   #401
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Wrong. If you are fighting arguably the greatest fighter of all time, which he was,
Well you must as well stop there but we'll continue anyway. I mean Corbett won 14 bouts from the ones listed. Tunney won 80 and only loss once.

Quote:
and you are a middleweight (not super middleweight), and you are even getting old and possibly past prime!, it might not be an easy fight, and it might take you a while to wear down your opponent, which it did (this wasnt an isolated one punch fluke).
Well Boilermaker, he weighed in around 167 pounds. Fitzimmons might've been a natural MW but at that time he was weight fluctuated around the MW area to 175 pounds. Your wearing down description isn't the way I've heard others describe it. I'm hearing Bob set a trap and amazingly landed the punch he needed. So I'm not sure. How past his prime was Bob at this point?


Quote:
Fitzsimmons slowly slowed and wore down his opponent. Could you imagine Sugar Ray Robinson (for example) comprehensively outboxing Gene Tunney? or Ezzard Charles? Because neither was really considered as great in their time as Corbett was.
No I couldn't, I'm getting your point.

However, that might parrtly say more about the time rather than the truth of the matter. That's why these fighters are now getting their deserving dues. I don't think I have to mention how society was back then... nor do I have to mention that Corbett is white. Charles I think is much greater than Corbett.

Quote:
But leaving that aside, you asked for dominating performances. An OLD fitzsimmons actually dominated Jim Jeffries, an all time great superheavyweight, before being KOd. More impressive than the Maxim fight, imo.
That's odd considering Maxim was formerly on your top 10 P4P list. Well, I guess not since Fitzsimmons had to deal with a severe weight disadvantage and Robinson doesn't have make your top 10 P4P list. Of course, neutral thinking there.

Quote:
And i think you asked for the dominating performance against an all time great that was supposedly missing. Well at his own weight and with both close to prime, he fought the all time great middleweight Jack Dempsey. He dominated, of course.
I think I did mention that he doesn't seem to dominate as much or as consistently against greater opposition as the other ATGs I mentioned. I just think they have a better track record. The MW Jack Dempsey is a good win, no doubt.

Boilermaker since this is clear as the day for you that Bob is the GOAT do you know of any other historian/writer that feels this way. You think highly of the opinions of what they thought about Corbett, I'd be interested to what your thoughts are regarding their views on Fitsimmons. Not that that discredits your viewpoint. This is not a popularity contest.
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:03 AM   #402
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by El Bujia View Post
Undefeated in over 100 fights (outside of an early career bout he took part in as a youngster)
Which he avenged by knockout (although I haven't been able to track down that fight, so going by secondary source).

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Originally Posted by El Bujia View Post
came back after a nearly two year hiatus to be shafted with a Draw (by all accounts) against the great Middleweight champion Mike Gibbons in the last bout of his career.
Packey won according to the majority of newspaper accounts.
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Old 10-19-2010, 04:08 AM   #403
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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I think I'll revise my list a bit by adding 1920 as cut-off point. Not that Gans and Langford (and Fitz) weren't great, but since records often are very spotty, film very sparse and official ratings non-existant it gets too difficult including that era. So the new list reads:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Willie Pep
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Muhammad Ali
7. Benny Leonard
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jimmy McLarnin*
10. Joe Louis

*Don't know much about him aside from his record, really. But he gets in on the strength of his wins over Ambers, Canzoneri, Ross, Young Corbett and Benny Leonard. Until some very strong arguments surface that these wins by a former flyweight aren't really as great as they seem, he stays.
The final list after one last revision:


1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Willie Pep
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Muhammad Ali
7. Benny Leonard
8. Roberto Duran
9. Archie Moore
10. Joe Louis
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Old 10-19-2010, 05:23 AM   #404
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Wow, this thread's going to take awhile to get through!

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Old 10-19-2010, 06:46 AM   #405
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

1. Sam Langford
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Harry Greb
5. Joe Gans
6. Benny Leonard
7. Ray Robinson
8. Joe Louis
9. Muhammad Ali
10. Willie Pep
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