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Old 10-19-2010, 11:59 AM   #406
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
Well you must as well stop there but we'll continue anyway. I mean Corbett won 14 bouts from the ones listed. Tunney won 80 and only loss once.
I think you might have miscounted there a bit. In reality, his recorded wins are more like about 50. I think Mendoza posted most of these fights once, but either way, it doesnt really matter how many wins he had. He beat John L Sullivan, who was considered the greatest ever, and he drew with Peter Jackson, who many also considered was the greatest ever. I am not saying that he was the greatest ever, in fact i dont think he was, but he was probably the greatest athlete to hold the title ever, and he had a scientific style thought to be second to none by most, and many people legititmately ranked him the greatest ever. Incidentally, Tunney also was great and is underated. But he was naturally smaller than Corbett, not the athlete, and to be honest, i am pretty sure that Tunney would think twice about making himself favourite against corbett.


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Well Boilermaker, he weighed in around 167 pounds. Fitzimmons might've been a natural MW but at that time he was weight fluctuated around the MW area to 175 pounds. Your wearing down description isn't the way I've heard others describe it. I'm hearing Bob set a trap and amazingly landed the punch he needed. So I'm not sure. How past his prime was Bob at this point?
He weighed in at 158 pounds when he won the title. 167 is a boxrec error.

Corbett started off dominating the action with speed and power. He had even knocked Fitz down earlier and nearly beat him. But, reports are pretty clear that the tide had turned by the time Fitz caught him with the famed solar plexus blow. Incidentally, although it is called the solar plexus blow, the punch is described in Fitzys manual which is available online. the famed solar plexus blow is actually a solar plexus punch followed by a left shift. Even now most people with tell you it was just a straight left. Yes, Fitz did set a trap, but it wouldnt have worked if he had not wore down Jim first.

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No I couldn't, I'm getting your point.

However, that might parrtly say more about the time rather than the truth of the matter. That's why these fighters are now getting their deserving dues. I don't think I have to mention how society was back then... nor do I have to mention that Corbett is white. Charles I think is much greater than Corbett.
I am not sure what it says about the time. Most people at the time, thought the older guys were better fighters than the modern guys, because of the softening of rule changes and harder training. I really dont think that racism played much of a part in peoples thinking as we think today, adn i think it was more a marketing gimmick which prevented fighters from taking risky fights or built up bigger rivalries. Peter Jackson had massive support. Wills had massive support. Langford was popular. Corbett was considered great, because he was great. Same with Jackson. They should have had a rematch, but they didnt. Let us not forget that Corbett did actually fight Jackson prime for prime, and he actually fared better than Muhammed Ali did against Joe Frazier.


Corbett's win over Sullivan is every bit as big as charles signature win over Louis or Walcott. His draw with Jackson is every bit as impressive probably more so than Charles win over Walcott. Choynski is as big a win as any light heavy victory Charles had. I agree that Charles is great and underated as a champion, but he is at his very best about the same proposition as Corbett. Glad to see you get the point though.

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That's odd considering Maxim was formerly on your top 10 P4P list. Well, I guess not since Fitzsimmons had to deal with a severe weight disadvantage and Robinson doesn't have make your top 10 P4P list. Of course, neutral thinking there.
I think that Robinson is still a very, very great fighter, despite missing out on this particular list. Maxim is a great, great fighter (even if not top 10 p 4 p), but you dont seriously think that Maxim would compete with Jim Jeffries, on level footing, do you? Fitz did a lot more damage to Jeffries than Ray did to Maxim.

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I think I did mention that he doesn't seem to dominate as much or as consistently against greater opposition as the other ATGs I mentioned. I just think they have a better track record. The MW Jack Dempsey is a good win, no doubt.
Actually he was a hell of a lot more dominant. Dont forget Hall, Maher, Sharkey, Ruhlin, Creedon and his string of contenders that he knocked out in less than 4 rounds. How much more dominant is it possible to be?

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Boilermaker since this is clear as the day for you that Bob is the GOAT do you know of any other historian/writer that feels this way. You think highly of the opinions of what they thought about Corbett, I'd be interested to what your thoughts are regarding their views on Fitsimmons. Not that that discredits your viewpoint. This is not a popularity contest.
No one in their time, thought there was a fighter who compared with Bob Fitzsimmons. Tommy Ryan, who has a record every bit as good as Sugar Rays (for his time) or at least if it isnt as good it isnt far off, once suggested a fight with an old bob Fitzsimmons, and it was virtually laughed at by most of the press. I am not sure what your point is here.

By the way, i was not always a fitzsimmons fan. I remember laughing at the idea that he was top 10 at light heavy, or even anything special at middleweight and certainly not in a pound for pound list. But honestly, the more you look into bob Fitzsimmons, the more he surprises you. It really does defy belief.
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Old 10-19-2010, 01:01 PM   #407
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Willie Pep
4. Harry Greb
5. Roberto Duran
6. Sam Langford
7. Joe Gans
8. Benny Leonard
9. Jimmy Wilde
10. Mickey Walker
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Old 10-19-2010, 05:26 PM   #408
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
I think you might have miscounted there a bit. In reality, his recorded wins are more like about 50. I think Mendoza posted most of these fights once, but either way, it doesnt really matter how many wins he had. He beat John L Sullivan, who was considered the greatest ever, and he drew with Peter Jackson, who many also considered was the greatest ever. I am not saying that he was the greatest ever, in fact i dont think he was, but he was probably the greatest athlete to hold the title ever, and he had a scientific style thought to be second to none by most, and many people legititmately ranked him the greatest ever. Incidentally, Tunney also was great and is underated. But he was naturally smaller than Corbett, not the athlete, and to be honest, i am pretty sure that Tunney would think twice about making himself favourite against corbett.



He weighed in at 158 pounds when he won the title. 167 is a boxrec error.

Corbett started off dominating the action with speed and power. He had even knocked Fitz down earlier and nearly beat him. But, reports are pretty clear that the tide had turned by the time Fitz caught him with the famed solar plexus blow. Incidentally, although it is called the solar plexus blow, the punch is described in Fitzys manual which is available online. the famed solar plexus blow is actually a solar plexus punch followed by a left shift. Even now most people with tell you it was just a straight left. Yes, Fitz did set a trap, but it wouldnt have worked if he had not wore down Jim first.


I am not sure what it says about the time. Most people at the time, thought the older guys were better fighters than the modern guys, because of the softening of rule changes and harder training. I really dont think that racism played much of a part in peoples thinking as we think today, adn i think it was more a marketing gimmick which prevented fighters from taking risky fights or built up bigger rivalries. Peter Jackson had massive support. Wills had massive support. Langford was popular. Corbett was considered great, because he was great. Same with Jackson. They should have had a rematch, but they didnt. Let us not forget that Corbett did actually fight Jackson prime for prime, and he actually fared better than Muhammed Ali did against Joe Frazier.


Corbett's win over Sullivan is every bit as big as charles signature win over Louis or Walcott. His draw with Jackson is every bit as impressive probably more so than Charles win over Walcott. Choynski is as big a win as any light heavy victory Charles had. I agree that Charles is great and underated as a champion, but he is at his very best about the same proposition as Corbett. Glad to see you get the point though.
Great retort, fair play to you. I'm not sure if Choynski is a better win than anything Charles had at LHW though. Most of his best wins came at MW anyway, which are far greater wins the Choynski one (Burley, Moore, etc).

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I think that Robinson is still a very, very great fighter, despite missing out on this particular list. Maxim is a great, great fighter (even if not top 10 p 4 p), but you dont seriously think that Maxim would compete with Jim Jeffries, on level footing, do you? Fitz did a lot more damage to Jeffries than Ray did to Maxim.
Jeffries is far bigger, so no. However, I think Ray was closer to winning. That's another discussion in and of itself though.

But, not having Ray in your top 10 just feels like an act of non-conformity. I'm sorry, just how I feel.

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Actually he was a hell of a lot more dominant. Dont forget Hall, Maher, Sharkey, Ruhlin, Creedon and his string of contenders that he knocked out in less than 4 rounds. How much more dominant is it possible to be?
Relative to the era and the quality of opposition it's not the same imo. But fair point.

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No one in their time, thought there was a fighter who compared with Bob Fitzsimmons. Tommy Ryan, who has a record every bit as good as Sugar Rays (for his time) or at least if it isnt as good it isnt far off, once suggested a fight with an old bob Fitzsimmons, and it was virtually laughed at by most of the press. I am not sure what your point is here.

By the way, i was not always a fitzsimmons fan. I remember laughing at the idea that he was top 10 at light heavy, or even anything special at middleweight and certainly not in a pound for pound list. But honestly, the more you look into bob Fitzsimmons, the more he surprises you. It really does defy belief.
I'm just curious of your opinion on historians view on him and contemporary thought as well. No angle here. Maybe I need to look more into him. Your last paragraph speaks volumes if true.
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Old 10-19-2010, 05:44 PM   #409
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
1. Sam Langford
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Harry Greb
5. Joe Gans
6. Benny Leonard
7. Ray Robinson
8. Joe Louis
9. Muhammad Ali
10. Willie Pep
Honest to god, I don't care how well written your posts are that is a shit list. I still think it's a joke list to be honest.
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Old 10-19-2010, 05:48 PM   #410
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

1. SRR
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Sam Langford
5. Muhammad Ali
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Joe Louis
8. Benny Leonard
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. Sugar Ray Leonard
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:31 PM   #411
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by ricardoparker93 View Post
Honest to god, I don't care how well written your posts are that is a shit list. I still think it's a joke list to be honest.
It's not that bad. Why do you think it's terrible, because it's an old-school list? I mean, I know we can both mention from our vantage point how he's ridiculously overrating Fitzsimmons, but with the people around here how could he not. I think Gans gets overlooked on these lists. Ray Robinson is way to frigging low. Didn't see that at first. Never gotten how Benny Leonard is above Charles in some people's lists.
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:32 PM   #412
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by Swarmer View Post
1. SRR
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Sam Langford
5. Muhammad Ali
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Joe Louis
8. Benny Leonard
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. Sugar Ray Leonard
After all that you come busting my balls when I say I don't feel the guys a top 5 guy? And you have frigging Muhammad Ali at #5? Amazing.
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:46 PM   #413
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
It's not that bad. Why do you think it's terrible, because it's an old-school list? I mean, I know we can both mention from our vantage point how he's ridiculously overrating Fitzsimmons, but with the people around here how could he not. I think Gans gets overlooked on these lists. Ray Robinson is way to frigging low. Didn't see that at first. Never gotten how Benny Leonard is above Charles in some people's lists.
Well personally I think that leaving Charles out is indefensible. Robinson although too low is at least there now instead of behind Joey maxim. Although I don't really mind seeing gans in there the absence of Duran is also pretty inexcusable, I mean on the one hand he rates dominance extremely highly but then argues that the likes of maxim should be included. Mind boggling really to say nothing of his ranking of Fitz
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:50 PM   #414
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by ricardoparker93 View Post
Well personally I think that leaving Charles out is indefensible. Robinson although too low is at least there now instead of behind Joey maxim. Although I don't really mind seeing gans in there the absence of Duran is also pretty inexcusable, I mean on the one hand he rates dominance extremely highly but then argues that the likes of maxim should be included. Mind boggling really to say nothing of his ranking of Fitz
Yeah, Charles not making it is tough. Robinson is oddly low. I don't think Maxim was ever on Unforgiven's list... that was Boilermaker. I don't think Duran's as much of a lock in a top 10 P4P list as I think Charles should be, but I get you. I wonder where he rates SRL...
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:52 PM   #415
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by ricardoparker93 View Post
Honest to god, I don't care how well written your posts are that is a shit list. I still think it's a joke list to be honest.
Thanks.

Well, it's not a joke list, though I'll admit it's certainly not written in stone. I can think of 5 or 6 others that could easily be included at some of those names' expense. And I could easily live with the order of the names I have being re-arranged to some degree.
It's no joke, I've named ten genuine p4p ATGs, all of whom I believe should definitely be on anyone's top 20-25.

Why do you say it's a shit list ? Which fighters do you think are not worthy of being in the discussion ?
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:58 PM   #416
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Some people get offended if Ray Robinson isn't in the top three.

It's alright, I get offended when Benny Leonard isn't in the top ten.
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:05 PM   #417
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Top2 of the pioneer era:
Bob Fitzsimmons
Sam Langford
Runners up: Tommy Ryan, Barbados Joe Walcott, Joe Gans

Top1 of the transition era:
Harry Greb
Runners up: Benny Leonard, Gene Tunney

Top5 of the classic era:
Mickey Walker
Henry Armstrong
Sugar Ray Robinson
Ezzard Charles
Roberto Duran
Runners up: Jimmy McLarnin, Toney Canzoneri, Barney Ross, Joe Louis, Archie Moore, Muhammad Ali, Jose Napoles

Top2 of the modern era:
Sugar Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Runenrs Up: Julio Cesar Chavez, Evander Holyfield, Manny Pacquiao

There´s your Top10. Not in order and it doesn´t really make sense but I was a bit bored.
Adepted to the rules of the thread, meaning I take the top2/1/5/2 from the eras and put them down in the order they came along:

1. Bob Fitzsimmons
2. Sam Langford
3. Harry Greb
4. Mickey Walker
5. Henry Armstrong
6. Ray Robinson
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Roberto Duran
9. Ray Leonard
0. Pernell Whitaker
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:23 PM   #418
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Bodhi, that's not the rules of this thread. THis thread calls for them to be placed in order of greatness so a numerical value can be assigned thus rendering a top 10 representative of the board's overall view. The one you've given isn't in order of greatness at all!
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:39 PM   #419
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Bodhi, that's not the rules of this thread. THis thread calls for them to be placed in order of greatness so a numerical value can be assigned thus rendering a top 10 representative of the board's overall view. The one you've given isn't in order of greatness at all!


I guess I´m kind of a rebell then.
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:40 PM   #420
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I think a rebel has to show some rebellion? I don't think not doing something really easy really qualifies...more teen anxt?

Still, we both know it was really about finding a way to put Fitz at #1. Very cunning.
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