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Old 09-24-2010, 05:31 AM   #91
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
Where the **** did Chris Byrd come from?

You looked at his list and THAT'S the name you picked to question?

For ****'s sake, he has Orlin Norris on that list!

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Old 09-24-2010, 05:52 AM   #92
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

1. ray robinson
2. muhammad ali
3. sugar ray leonard
4. roberto duran
5. salvador sanchez
6. thomas hearns
7. roy jones junior
8. pernell whittaker
9. marvin hagler
10. evander holyfield

I dont rank older boxers simply because i dont think they have the techincal or physical attributes that the modern day fighters pocess
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:01 AM   #93
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by ali's jockstrap View Post
1. ray robinson
2. muhammad ali
3. sugar ray leonard
4. roberto duran
5. salvador sanchez
6. thomas hearns
7. roy jones junior
8. pernell whittaker
9. marvin hagler
10. evander holyfield

I dont rank older boxers simply because i dont think they have the techincal or physical attributes that the modern day fighters pocess
sounds good to me and your list looks ok apart from holyfield
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:03 AM   #94
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

can i ask why? who would you replace him with?
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:08 AM   #95
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by ali's jockstrap View Post
can i ask why? who would you replace him with?
ezzard charles for one.
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:18 AM   #96
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
I am not sure i have ever put him in my top 10 light heavyweight lists either. But that doesnt mean he shouldnt be.
So if Maxim, a big light heavyweight by the era's standards, doesn't make top 10 at light heavyweight, then how does he make the pound for pound list? For his accomplishments at heavyweight?

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Sugar Ray Robinson - Most say he is the greatest welterweight of all time, many say he is the greatest Middleweight of all time and most say he is the greatest fighter of all time. Joey beat him. Yes Ray was getting on, but he was still good enough to lift the world title, after this loss. Admittedly, Joey was the bigger fighter.
A 30+ year old Robinson was pitching a shutout until running out of gas against the far bigger man under extreme heat.

Robinson admitted that Charles would have been too big and good for him, but that Maxim was a far easier opponent as he couldn't punch.

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Jersey Joe Walcott - balances this out, as he is an all time great heavyweight fighter, who Joey managed to beat.
Walcott won 2 out of 3, and the loss was arguably a robbery.

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Jimmy Bivens - is another who i think is criminally underated, and i think he was clearly the best heavyweight in the world (outside Joe Louis) for a decent amount of time. Joey beat him too.
Bivins was washed up at the time, lost a SD to the hometown fighter. He also holds a win over Maxim, so they went 1-1. No one in their right mind would put Bivins in the top 10 p4p, even though he has an equally as impressive record as Maxim or even more so.

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This is probably his peak, but like all greats, he still went on to have fights against the likes of Robinson, Moore, charles etc. Closer to prime Maxim almost certainly gives Moore, Charles etc an even harder fight. In fact, almost certainly, if Moore, Charles, Maxim, Walcott met on their very best nights, they would split series with each other, swap wins and have mostly split decision fights. I tend to think it is near impossible to split all four of these guys. Strangely enough, i think that all 4 probably beat Sugar Ray at any stage, though Ray is obviously smaller so this helps his rating.

Ordinarilly i rank Charles and Moore in my top 10. But, it is near impossible to split them and today, i was particularly impressed with Joey Maxim's record. I have no issue with anyone putting Moore and Charles top 10 in fact i usually do and may even change before the deadline. I think he has beaten as many pound for pound greats as anyone else.

These lists in particular are near impossible to list. How do you leave off a Joe Louis who dominated his division like no other. Or a Carlos Monzon who outclassed a division for a decade. Tommy Ryan, who basically replicated what Sugar Ray Robinson did. Benny Leonard who was a master, Willy Pep, Barbados Joe Walcott, Sugar Ray Leonard, the list goes on and on and on.
Charles beat Maxim 5 times from 1942 to 1951. If that isn't a decisive enough series then nothing is.

Maxim was still champ at the time he fought Moore, and was beaten 3 times against a man nearly 10 years older than he was.

In case of Maxim's biggest wins, not to downgrade him, but even a blind chicken finds a kernel of corn every once in a while. He fought so many greats that he's bound to have a few wins over them, he was a very, very good fighter himself, but he mostly came up with losses and never with decisive wins. The series with Moore and Charles show that he is short of ATG status, both at light heavyweight and especially pound for pound. His greatest claim to fame is a win over a former welterweight, who as I said was winning nearly every round up to that point.
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Old 09-24-2010, 04:57 PM   #97
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by teeto View Post
Nah i'm not, because what i said was the 'best' p4p is different from the 'greatest' p4p, ie resumes. I can say that Willie Pep is one of the very best boxers ever p4p, but to me it's wrong to have him very high on a greatest p4p list, because there are a lot of others with greater resumes. If you don't get what i mean i'll just have to explain it better, but i definitely know what i mean and they're definitely not the same to me.
You're applying your own meanings to these words. Greatest or best P4P can have whatever criteria you want when applying them. I see what you're trying to say, but I don't see how best doesn't mean resume included while greatest does. Like these words don't bring these known distinction between the words. Like why can't greatest P4P fighters be the greatest fighters you ever saw/read about P4P... there is no wrong criteria.
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:02 PM   #98
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
Hasn't changed since last time.

1. Joe Gans
2. Packey McFarland
3. Benny Leonard
4. Sugar Ray Robinson
5. Roy Jones Jr
6. Harry Greb
7. Kid Gavilan
8. Floyd Mayweather Jr
9. Barney Ross
10. Sugar Ray Leonard
Interesting and bizarre.
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:04 PM   #99
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
You're applying your own meanings to these words. Greatest or best P4P can have whatever criteria you want when applying them. I see what you're trying to say, but I don't see how best doesn't mean resume included while greatest does. Like these words don't bring these known distinction between the words. Like why can't greatest P4P fighters be the greatest fighters you ever saw/read about P4P... there is no wrong criteria.
I'm not saying what is wrong or right. I just said it would be easier for me to say who i think are the best rather than the greatest, notice the word I, so i don't see the problem tbh. But if i'm being honest, i don't know why we're still discussing it really, not to be rude or anything with that comment, but what i said in my last post still stands the way i see it. Greatness for me refers more to achievements whereas being good or the best is simply concerned with how good you are, hence my Willie Pep remark earlier.
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:17 PM   #100
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

What i was getting at when i originally posted was this (notice i said that who i consider the best would ultimately be based on specualtion/opinion, because it's just something i can't see past when i watch them box/fight, and therefore i could be criticised without being able to justify my picks with a criterium, because it would simply be opinion)- from me viewing footage, Sugar Ray Robinson. Muhammad Ali and Roberto Duran are the best fighters ever, after that you've got others like Pep etc. Now i couldn't jsut throw a list of ten fighrers out on that basis because it just wouldn't be right the way i see it. For me to focus this p4p list on objectivity, meaning resumes and accomplishments, then i'd be needing to research more deep into the resumes of the likes of Jimmy McLarnin, Jack Britton, Harada, Marshall, and i haven't done that yet. That's all i meant, i don't want to rush an opinionated list rather than make an objective one. I wasn't attacking anyone's principles, just expressing that i need time to do this.
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:33 PM   #101
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
Hasn't changed since last time.

1. Joe Gans
2. Packey McFarland
3. Benny Leonard
4. Sugar Ray Robinson
5. Roy Jones Jr
6. Harry Greb
7. Kid Gavilan
8. Floyd Mayweather Jr
9. Barney Ross
10. Sugar Ray Leonard
The interesting point here is the high ranking of Packey McFarland.
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:34 PM   #102
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeto View Post
I'm not saying what is wrong or right. I just said it would be easier for me to say who i think are the best rather than the greatest, notice the word I, so i don't see the problem tbh. But if i'm being honest, i don't know why we're still discussing it really, not to be rude or anything with that comment, but what i said in my last post still stands the way i see it. Greatness for me refers more to achievements whereas being good or the best is simply concerned with how good you are, hence my Willie Pep remark earlier.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeto View Post
What i was getting at when i originally posted was this (notice i said that who i consider the best would ultimately be based on specualtion/opinion, because it's just something i can't see past when i watch them box/fight, and therefore i could be criticised without being able to justify my picks with a criterium, because it would simply be opinion)- from me viewing footage, Sugar Ray Robinson. Muhammad Ali and Roberto Duran are the best fighters ever, after that you've got others like Pep etc. Now i couldn't jsut throw a list of ten fighrers out on that basis because it just wouldn't be right the way i see it. For me to focus this p4p list on objectivity, meaning resumes and accomplishments, then i'd be needing to research more deep into the resumes of the likes of Jimmy McLarnin, Jack Britton, Harada, Marshall, and i haven't done that yet. That's all i meant, i don't want to rush an opinionated list rather than make an objective one. I wasn't attacking anyone's principles, just expressing that i need time to do this.
Ok, I think I get you now. I was about to ask you where you got best and greatest from since Rumsfeld just said top 10 P4P. But you take P4P as greatest.
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:42 PM   #103
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
Fair enough.



Ok, I think I get you now. I was about to ask you where you got best and greatest from since Rumsfeld just said top 10 P4P. But you take P4P as greatest.
sorry if any of that came across wrong man
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:31 PM   #104
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
So if Maxim, a big light heavyweight by the era's standards, doesn't make top 10 at light heavyweight, then how does he make the pound for pound list? For his accomplishments at heavyweight?
I didnt say he doesnt make top 10, i said he didnt make top 10 the last time I thought about it. The fact is, and this is one of the things that most people dont understand, there have been so many great, great fighters, that there really is no such thing as a lock for top 10 positions in any list.

[/quote]

A 30+ year old Robinson was pitching a shutout until running out of gas against the far bigger man under extreme heat.
[quote]

This is controversial, but i really dont agree that extreme heat favours the bigger man. In fact I think it favours the smaller (presumably fitter) man. So Ray was exhausted, So was Foreman, So was Jeffries, the list goes on. The fact is that Maxim beat Robinson, by TKO. That is the reality of the situation. Robinson couldnt continue. Robinson didnt get exhausted because he was punching too much, or running too much. He got exhausted because Maxim landed enough big hard shots to tire him out. That is what causes exhaustion in boxing, imo.

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Robinson admitted that Charles would have been too big and good for him, but that Maxim was a far easier opponent as he couldn't punch.
Well it seems that both of them were too good from him, doesnt it?

This is an interesting point though, i wonder how Charles v Robinson at say, a Supermiddleweight catchweight would have went down. Maybe i should drop Robinson further down the list?

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Walcott won 2 out of 3, and the loss was arguably a robbery.

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Yeah, Walcott was a great, great fighter. And great, great heavyweight champion. In fact, the reality is that he is about on par or better than Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Maxim, Bivins etc. But, and here is the problem, if i put him in then it opens up an even bigger can of worms (which i must confess, i am starting to lean towards). You cant put in a heavyweight like Joe Walcott, without including Joe Louis and then perhaps Muhammed Ali (who was perfectly built for a fighter), then you have Carlos Monzon, Benny Leonard, Willie Pep, the list goes on.
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Bivins was washed up at the time, lost a SD to the hometown fighter. He also holds a win over Maxim, so they went 1-1. No one in their right mind would put Bivins in the top 10 p4p, even though he has an equally as impressive record as Maxim or even more so.
I actually agree that Bivins was getting on and not at his best. Though saying that he was still good enough to go the distance with Louis, Charles and Johnson, many years later. I disagree that no one in their right mind would put Bivins in a top 10 list. In fact, I am pretty sure that if Joe Louis had not been born, Bivins would have been a Lineal world Champion of decent standing. Though i do get your point, and i am starting to think that my list is starting to overrate the Robinson, Charles, Moore, Maxim era as it is not really possible for one era to have 4 greats so highly ranked relative to other eras, particularly when they are also roughly the same weight as well.

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Charles beat Maxim 5 times from 1942 to 1951. If that isn't a decisive enough series then nothing is.
Tunney beat Dempsey 10 rounds to 1. Who is the better fighter? Tunney also beat Greb a heap of times. Why is Greb ahead of Tunney on every list on these boards, so far?
Quote:

Maxim was still champ at the time he fought Moore, and was beaten 3 times against a man nearly 10 years older than he was.

In case of Maxim's biggest wins, not to downgrade him, but even a blind chicken finds a kernel of corn every once in a while. He fought so many greats that he's bound to have a few wins over them, he was a very, very good fighter himself, but he mostly came up with losses and never with decisive wins. The series with Moore and Charles show that he is short of ATG status, both at light heavyweight and especially pound for pound. His greatest claim to fame is a win over a former welterweight, who as I said was winning nearly every round up to that point.
You dont have any wins over greats unless you are pretty great yourself (or if the great totally underestimates you and you are big and strong enough to land a few hail marys).

Maxim had some great, great wins. That is why he is able to be ranked very highly. EVen if he did have some losses (as do most greats who fight as often as Maxim did). In fact i believe taht if the chicken finds a kernal of Corn he also tends to lose it from time to time. Interestingly, this pound for pound list is an all time list and not 1950s list or 1980s list. It is not the best fighters over 10 rounds or who can score the most newspaper decisions, it is who is the best fighter end of story. Joey Maxim fought probably as many pound for pound greats as anyone. If the rules were all time rules, he would have lost just the one fight (to Curtis Sheppard). And he would have beaten the (arguably) greatest fighter ever. Can Charles, Walcott or Robinson say this?

The reason why I through him in as the main smokey (and it was spur of the moment) is firstly, because he has defeated by KO the man who is usually considered the no 1 pound for pound of all time. Secondly, he regularly fought top 10 fighters Charles and Moore and his level of competition was exemplary. He also fought Some of the very best heavyweight contenders of his era. And most importantly, after fighting all of these fights, he was only ever stopped once. Even when he was past his best and still fighting greats.

That is a good record worthy of discussion and i am glad that Joey Maxim has had this attention. I think he deserves it He is certainly a hell of a lot more than a supposed "lucky" victory over Sugar Ray Robinson.
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:39 PM   #105
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

1.) Sugar Ray Robinson
2.) Henry Armstrong
3.) Harry Greb
4.) Bob Fitzsimmons
5.) Roberto Duran
6.) Willie Pep
7.) Charley Burley
8.) Bennie Leonard
9.) Sam Langford
10.) Eder Jofre
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