P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 27)

[teeto]

Joey Maxim will be top of my list. The only man to comprehensively defeat Robinson.

[GPater11093]

1. Harry Greb
2. Ray Robinson
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Sam Langford
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Jimmy Bivens
8. Barney Ross
9. Willie Pep
10. Alexis Arguello


Emphasis on dominance and weight 'jumping'.

[teeto]

Roberto Duran eats Willie Pep on one of these lists in my humble opinion

[bodhi]

Originally Posted by GPater11093

1. Harry Greb
2. Ray Robinson
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Sam Langford
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Jimmy Bivens
8. Barney Ross
9. Willie Pep
10. Alexis Arguello


Emphasis on dominance and weight 'jumping'.

Hm, what about Mickey Walker?

[TheGreatA]

Originally Posted by Boilermaker

I didnt say he doesnt make top 10, i said he didnt make top 10 the last time I thought about it. The fact is, and this is one of the things that most people dont understand, there have been so many great, great fighters, that there really is no such thing as a lock for top 10 positions in any list.

There have been a lot of great fighters, and there have been a handful of all-time greats. Charles and Moore were all-time greats, Maxim falls short of that status.

This is controversial, but i really dont agree that extreme heat favours the bigger man. In fact I think it favours the smaller (presumably fitter) man. So Ray was exhausted, So was Foreman, So was Jeffries, the list goes on. The fact is that Maxim beat Robinson, by TKO. That is the reality of the situation. Robinson couldnt continue. Robinson didnt get exhausted because he was punching too much, or running too much. He got exhausted because Maxim landed enough big hard shots to tire him out. That is what causes exhaustion in boxing, imo.

One could count the clean punches landed by Maxim during the fight with the fingers of their two hands.

It should be fairly obvious that the heat favours the bigger, stronger man who was known for his stamina and durability and whose only chance to win was to wear down his smaller opponent, who was completely outboxing him all the way. Maxim barely threw any punches and Robinson did a lot of moving to stay away from the bigger man. Now you may argue that it was "brilliant" strategy, but it was far from impressive.

Well it seems that both of them were too good from him, doesnt it?

This is an interesting point though, i wonder how Charles v Robinson at say, a Supermiddleweight catchweight would have went down. Maybe i should drop Robinson further down the list?

Too big perhaps, but certainly not "too good". Lloyd Marshall and Jimmy Bivins did sweep the floor with a young "super middleweight" Ezzard Charles, while no one ever dominated Robinson until he was absolutely ancient, however Ray Robinson was a welterweight and he should be judged based upon results against other welterweights and perhaps middleweights, but not light heavyweights and heavyweights.

Yeah, Walcott was a great, great fighter. And great, great heavyweight champion. In fact, the reality is that he is about on par or better than Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Maxim, Bivins etc. But, and here is the problem, if i put him in then it opens up an even bigger can of worms (which i must confess, i am starting to lean towards). You cant put in a heavyweight like Joe Walcott, without including Joe Louis and then perhaps Muhammed Ali (who was perfectly built for a fighter), then you have Carlos Monzon, Benny Leonard, Willie Pep, the list goes on.

There is no reason to put Walcott in. Charles was clearly a naturally smaller man, but went 2-2 with Walcott, winning their first two until unwisely giving Jersey Joe a third chance, and had a better overall record from middleweight up to heavyweight. Walcott came up short in two tries against both Marciano and Louis, all-time great heavyweights who rightfully rate above him, and also suffered an upset loss to the seemingly inferior Rex Layne.

I actually agree that Bivins was getting on and not at his best. Though saying that he was still good enough to go the distance with Louis, Charles and Johnson, many years later. I disagree that no one in their right mind would put Bivins in a top 10 list. In fact, I am pretty sure that if Joe Louis had not been born, Bivins would have been a Lineal world Champion of decent standing. Though i do get your point, and i am starting to think that my list is starting to overrate the Robinson, Charles, Moore, Maxim era as it is not really possible for one era to have 4 greats so highly ranked relative to other eras, particularly when they are also roughly the same weight as well.

The easy option is not to rate Maxim as highly as you do, because in no way does he deserve it. Robinson, Charles and Moore were truly awesome fighters, Moore for almost unmatched longevity and quality of opposition while Robinson and Charles were simply dominant at their best weights, and successful above it.

Tunney beat Dempsey 10 rounds to 1. Who is the better fighter? Tunney also beat Greb a heap of times. Why is Greb ahead of Tunney on every list on these boards, so far?

Tunney is arguably better pound for pound, due to accomplishments at both light heavyweight and heavyweight. He is certainly the better boxer, but not necessarily the better fighter. Greb only decisively lost to Tunney two times, and had a far more extensive overall record, not to mention he was 10 to 15 pounds smaller in weight.

In the case of Maxim, Charles and Moore, Maxim does not have a more extensive record of wins, usually doing worse against common opponents, and he lost their series very decisively, thus has no reasonable claim to being rated above Moore and Charles.

You dont have any wins over greats unless you are pretty great yourself (or if the great totally underestimates you and you are big and strong enough to land a few hail marys).

Pretty great indeed but how great? How great were his opponents at the time he beat them? Were his wins decisive or did he benefit from a bad decision? Did he get the better of his opponent in a series?

Maxim had some great, great wins. That is why he is able to be ranked very highly. EVen if he did have some losses (as do most greats who fight as often as Maxim did). In fact i believe taht if the chicken finds a kernal of Corn he also tends to lose it from time to time. Interestingly, this pound for pound list is an all time list and not 1950s list or 1980s list. It is not the best fighters over 10 rounds or who can score the most newspaper decisions, it is who is the best fighter end of story. Joey Maxim fought probably as many pound for pound greats as anyone. If the rules were all time rules, he would have lost just the one fight (to Curtis Sheppard). And he would have beaten the (arguably) greatest fighter ever. Can Charles, Walcott or Robinson say this?

What all-time rules? There is no such a thing. The fact is that Maxim's win over Robinson convinced no one of his greatness. His toughness yes, but not his greatness. He was losing nearly every round to a natural welterweight, and pulled off a win over a man who was falling over on his own by the end of the fight. When competing against men of his own size, Moore and Charles, he did not get the better of them a single time. That puts an end to any claims about all-time greatness, when there were several men better than you in your own time.

The reason why I through him in as the main smokey (and it was spur of the moment) is firstly, because he has defeated by KO the man who is usually considered the no 1 pound for pound of all time. Secondly, he regularly fought top 10 fighters Charles and Moore and his level of competition was exemplary. He also fought Some of the very best heavyweight contenders of his era. And most importantly, after fighting all of these fights, he was only ever stopped once. Even when he was past his best and still fighting greats.

That is a good record worthy of discussion and i am glad that Joey Maxim has had this attention. I think he deserves it He is certainly a hell of a lot more than a supposed "lucky" victory over Sugar Ray Robinson.

But not all that much more since it's the only case that can be made for him when it comes to all-time greatness. The rest of his record simply doesn't match up.

I think nowadays Maxim gets flattered by the victory as often as he gets criticized. If the roles were the opposite and Robinson had won the title the same way, I cannot see him being given a ton of credit, let alone if it was happening to a man 2 divisions below his natural weight. I can hardly see any featherweight going 10 rounds with a prime Robinson, and certainly not winning the majority of them.

[GPater11093]

Originally Posted by teeto

Roberto Duran eats Willie Pep on one of these lists in my humble opinion

Probably.

Originally Posted by bodhi

Hm, what about Mickey Walker?

Probably.

To be fair P4P lists are completly meaningless IMO. All these guys IMO all deserve in the same class of fighters.

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by teeto

sorry if any of that came across wrong man

It's all good, I know I must've probably been a tad annoying but I was curious. Probably because it seems people speak with these terms and I think sometimes we all are saying something different without realizing it.

[doug.ie]

Originally Posted by teeto

Joey Maxim will be top of my list. The only man to comprehensively defeat Robinson.

loved the quote he gave when people blamed the heat for robinson losing to him...."well, there was no refridgerator in my corner.."

when you consider he was only ko'd once in a 115 fight career (and had revenge in the very next fight)...and beat robinson and walcott {once}...went close with charles a few times and archie moore a couple...and beat floyd patterson {although i read that patterson was robbed}...it all makes for fascinating reading..

[teeto]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

It's all good, I know I must've probably been a tad annoying but I was curious. Probably because it seems people speak with these terms and I think sometimes we all are saying something different without realizing it.

nah it wasn't annoying Pete,

also- Joey Maxim number one all time

[teeto]

Originally Posted by doug.ie

loved the quote he gave when people blamed the heat for robinson losing to him...."well, there was no refridgerator in my corner.."

when you consider he was only ko'd once in a 115 fight career (and had revenge in the very next fight)...and beat robinson and walcott {once}...went close with charles a few times and archie moore a couple...and beat floyd patterson {although i read that patterson was robbed}...it all makes for fascinating reading..

[TheGreatA]

The greatest in action:

[ame]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=wYN2eeIuZr4[/ame]

[teeto]

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by teeto

nah it wasn't annoying Pete,

also- Joey Maxim number one all time

Well he out-lasted Sugar Ray. The man most be a half-mortal. The ref, the crowd, and the great Sugar Ray all wilted under the heat. But Maxim persevered... and he tries to educate us with his whimsical undeniable logic.

"they talk about that fight like he lost because of the heat. well I always tell them I wasn't fighting in the air-conditioner either."

If only fights were 40 rounds and fought in outdoor arenas, Maxim would truly get to display his immortality. Forget about the Moore and Charles fights, those were fought in the cool air-conditioned arenas. Wasn't a balance playing field...

[TheGreatA]

In a fight to the finish and under scorching heat, Maxim would outlast any man who ever fought, including a prime Jim Jeffries, although that one could last a couple of hundred rounds before Jeffries falls from exhaustion.

[teeto]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

Well he out-lasted Sugar Ray. The man most be a half-mortal. The ref, the crowd, and the great Sugar Ray all wilted under the heat. But Maxim persevered... and he tries to educate us with his whimsical undeniable logic.

"they talk about that fight like he lost because of the heat. well I always tell them I wasn't fighting in the air-conditioner either."

If only fights were 40 rounds and fought in outdoor arenas, Maxim would truly get to display his immortality. Forget about the Moore and Charles fights, those were fought in the cool air-conditioned arenas. Wasn't a balance playing field...

and GreatA also-