What type of chance would Tim Witherpsoon have vs Mike Tyson in 1986-1990?

[Mendoza]

What type of chance would Tim Witherpsoon have vs Mike Tyson in 1986-1990?

[hobgoblin]

In an effort to avoid giving a popular fighter like Mike Tyson too much credit and in an effort to give due credit to a lesser talked about or regardless fighter Tim Witherspoon, people overdo it. Granted, Mike Tyson had his flaws and on a given night, a lesser fighter could give him a run for his money. Having said that, I would safely put money on Mike Tyson decisioning Tim Witherspoon. Spoon had good skills and good physical talent. But so did Tyson. Spoon's jab would be good avoiding letting Tyson freely do as he pleased, but it was not nearly as FAST as Douglas'. Key thing for Douglas was that his hand speed made it tough to avoid his jab. It was the handspeed (and excellent timing) of Douglas that allowed him to land 4 punch combinations on Tyson. I don't see Spoon able to do stuff like this regularly during the fight. There's also a good chance of a Mike Tyson better mentally than the Tokyo version. I see this as a more competitive Tyson-Tucker fight to be honest. Spoon had a good right but a young Mike Tyson was, err, young and fit and active and so he could take a punch much better than the shot, less active version (who could also take a punch really well). If Spoon catches Tyson, Tyson is little danger thanks to his chin. He recovers, is kept busy by Spoon's jab, but thanks to his speed & aggressiveness or occasional bobbing & weaving, he throws a few good, powerful shots each round to score points. Close but clear rounds for Tyson in my book (just like Holmes vs Spoon). Spoon did not have the physical talent of Douglas to pull the same kind of thing. Many will disagree here but even compare Spoon vs Holmes to Douglas vs Tyson - who SHOWED more talent e.g. handspeed, combinations, timing (never mind who LOOKED better). I know Holmes & Tyson are like chalk and cheese, different styles call for different looks from opponents, but both were very legitimate champions to face - they were not ghosts of themselves. Also, there is a HIGHER CHANCE of Spoon having a night like he did against Bonecrusher Smith than Tyson having an off night. If you think Tyson isn't reliable, Spoon is WORSE!

[JohnThomas1]

I'd put it at 5-1. The standard Tyson from his short peak would whoop his ass.

[Langford]

I take it we are going on a Witherspoon who showed his promise in the Holmes fight and would have been able to keep himself motivated and build on his talent?

I don't think he would have froze up or allowed himself to become mentally beat before the fight. I think he had a very good chin himself, but I still wouldn't bet for him.

A fight with some give and take moments, but mostly a Tyson in control,
UD for Tyson.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by Langford

I take it we are going on a Witherspoon who showed his promise in the Holmes fight and would have been able to keep himself motivated and build on his talent?

I don't think he would have froze up or allowed himself to become mentally beat before the fight. I think he had a very good chin himself, but I still wouldn't bet for him.

A fight with some give and take moments, but mostly a Tyson in control,
UD for Tyson.

Witherspoon had some top performances besides Holmes. In some cases Witherspoon beat top fighters, and then Tyson fought them after Witherpsoon had already beaten them. Witherpsoon defeated Tills, Smith, Tubbs and Bruno….then Tyson fought Smith, Tubbs, and Bruno in title fights. Witherpsoon was iced from the title.

I think Withepsoon has similar skills to Douglas, except he hit harder, had better defense and took a better punch. Those who have not seen a lot of Witherspoon will be surprised at how atheletic and defensive he could be.

Tyson showed early signs of becoming un-done vs Bruno where he was in fact stunned by a punch, and was upset by Douglas. While some say Tyson was slipping from 1988-1989, has anyone considered that Tyson had match up problems vs big fighters who can box and punch? I think there is something to be said about Tyson having issues vs bigger guys who can jab and punch. It’s true. Bruno, though he lacked confidence, had Tyson hurt in their fight, and of Coruse Douglas knocked Tyson out. Tyson had his hands full vs James Quick Tills. The fight was very close. Bigger fighters like Tucker, Green, and Smith went 12 with Tyson. Hmmm….

Yet when Tyson was in vs a non- power puncher his size or smaller Spinks or Frazier, or vs a out of shape Tubbs, or glass jawed Williams, he blew them out.

Assuming Withespoon is in shape, I believe he had the right stuff to upset Tyson from 1986-1990.

[Langford]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Witherspoon had some top performances besides Holmes. In some cases Witherspoon beat top fighters, and then Tyson fought them after Witherpsoon had already beaten them. Witherpsoon defeated Tills, Smith, Tubbs and Bruno….then Tyson fought Smith, Tubbs, and Bruno in title fights. Witherpsoon was iced from the title.

I think Withepsoon has similar skills to Douglas, except he hit harder, had better defense and took a better punch. Those who have not seen a lot of Witherspoon will be surprised at how atheletic and defensive he could be.

Tyson showed early signs of becoming un-done vs Bruno where he was in fact stunned by a punch, and was upset by Douglas. While some say Tyson was slipping from 1988-1989, has anyone considered that Tyson had match up problems vs big fighters who can box and punch? I think there is something to be said about Tyson having issues vs bigger guys who can jab and punch. It’s true. Bruno, though he lacked confidence, had Tyson hurt in their fight, and of Coruse Douglas knocked Tyson out. Tyson had his hands full vs James Quick Tills. The fight was very close. Bigger fighters like Tucker, Green, and Smith went 12 with Tyson. Hmmm….

Yet when Tyson was in vs a non- power puncher his size or smaller Spinks or Frazier, or vs a out of shape Tubbs, or glass jawed Williams, he blew them out.

Assuming Withespoon is in shape, I believe he had the right stuff to upset Tyson from 1986-1990.

I agree that there was more to witherspoon than the Holmes fight, but that was a fight that I look at as being the building block of things to come. Perhaps, if he had been given the nod there, or at least a fair rematch, and been able to win, he could have been a pretty dominant force in the heavyweights, perhaps to tyson, perhaps beyond.

Maybe its naive of me, but maybe he would have been in a better situation as champ and been given better deals when it came to fight cuts and not have been viewed as being so disposable by the powers that be. With Witherspoon, not only do I think he more than held is own with his era, but there is a real question of How good could he have been.

I don't know to what extent that Witherspoon was kept away from Tyson, but it didn't help that was trounced in one round to Smith and Tyson never did have to go through him to unify.

Larger guys who could land a good jab and could punch, it is true that if you were going to build a fighter to beat Tyson it would be like that. But Douglas had a few things over Witherspoon.
1. Witherspoon's jab would not be as good as Douglas was in Japan, being kind of that quick ramrod,
2. I have never seen Witherspoon land the successive multiple shots that Douglas was able to.
3. Though the tale of the tape shows them to be the same size, I just see Douglas as being much stronger physically. I don't really see Witherspoon pushing him around the way Douglas did.

and Douglas adminstered a lot of damage over the course of the fight and Tyson still went 10. And how well would you compare the uppercut (a helpful atribute) of Douglas to that of WItherspoon?

I just don't clearly see a more motivated, quicker, well trained Tyson not winning a UD. Though you are definitely right, it would have been a great fight.

[JohnBKelly]

Witherspoon v Tyson in 86-87 would have been a decent fight. Tim was strong durable and reasonably well skilled. Tim would have been the only guy from that era capable of taking the fight to Tyson at close range. Tim couldn't beat Tyson from the outside as Mike had the edge in speed and power. Imagine a more active version of the Tyson v Bonecrusher fight were both guys are trying to win. Tim could win it late, otherwise its Mikey T on points.

[hobgoblin]

With all due respect, this is the stuff I speak against...

Originally Posted by Mendoza

I think Withepsoon has similar skills to Douglas, except he hit harder, had better defense and took a better punch.

Did he have the hand SPEED of Douglas? No. Tyson was not bobbing and using and relying on his terrific reflexes against Douglas' punches for most of the fight. Against most fighters this would work (see Razor Ruddock) but with Douglas the punches came too fast for sheer reflexes to handle. Douglas was SPECIAL in terms of speed. Spoon was no slow poke either but he wasn't on the level of Douglas for this KEY attribute to beat Tyson.

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Tyson showed early signs of becoming un-done vs Bruno where he was in fact stunned by a punch

Bruno has good power and he caught Tyson with as clean of a punch you could land. Yet the results were only stunned - Tyson recovered quickly.This could be said for just about any fighter - Foreman, Ali, Holmes, you name 'em. Anyone caught with a clean shot from a fighter with decent power will feel something, don't ya think? This is nothing special to consider. Not at all. Tyson was in little danger thanks to his chin and fitness

Originally Posted by Mendoza

has anyone considered that Tyson had match up problems vs big fighters who can box and punch?

Anyone would have problems with a fighter described! I love it when someone says, to beat Tyson, you needed a good jab, good lateral movement, motivation, game plan, be able to take a punch, have good power...etc - hahahaha! For whom would this kind of fighter not be a full night's work?

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Tyson had his hands full vs James Quick Tills. The fight was very close.

Not really. I think Tyson won majority of the rounds. Tyson was green and he was having a fun time in there. Haven't seen it in a long time but Tyson was goofing around bobbing and weaving, dropping down to his knees and horsing around effortlessly with Tillis. It was far from a struggle. Just a good night's work of 10 rounds. Again, to avoid giving Tyson the benefit of the doubt, people take it too far.

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Tucker, Green, and Smith went 12 with Tyson. Hmmm….

It's well known that Tucker had a granite chin. Green had a granite chin (see his boxrec stats - discrepancies have good explanations to them not related to chin). This is why both lasted 12 rounds. He also took a bare fisted punch from Tyson that CRATERED his face (this verifies that the punch had decent power, even if Tyson is the variable in question) and he was still standing and ready to fight! If that's not a good chin then I don't know what is. ALL 3 kept holding and trying to surive. Especially Smith. Tucker took a beating. Even Lennox Lewis wasn't able to KO a shot Tucker in 1993 (when drugs and such caught up to him and by his own admission he wasn't able to roll with the punches with Lewis as he could in 1987).

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Assuming Withespoon is in shape, I believe he had the right stuff to upset Tyson from 1986-1990.

That's a BIG assumption you're making. To an extreme, exaggerated example, it's like saying assuming Golota had his head on straight, he could beat so and so. You know what is a much, much safer bet? Assuming Tyson comes in shape and ready. Here we are hoping that Tokyo Tyson for Spoon's sake - but what about Spoon's much more awful track record? Probablility is an interesting thing. In any given fight, anything can happen. But there is a chance that diamond can turn into coal (true fact) - but what is the probability of that! Of course Spoon has his chances - put I wouldn't put money on it.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by JohnBKelly

Witherspoon v Tyson in 86-87 would have been a decent fight. Tim was strong durable and reasonably well skilled. Tim would have been the only guy from that era capable of taking the fight to Tyson at close range. Tim couldn't beat Tyson from the outside as Mike had the edge in speed and power. Imagine a more active version of the Tyson v Bonecrusher fight were both guys are trying to win. Tim could win it late, otherwise its Mikey T on points.

Witherspoon had fast hands. And he had a very good right hand. Those who disagree need to see a bit more of Witherpsoon. I beleive Witherspoon could out point Tyson from the outside if a boxing match broke out. Tyson reach was but 71", and his true height was closer to 5'9 1/2 - 5'10" than the listed 5'11 1/2". Withespoon was about 6'3", and had a 78" reach.

I'd still go with Tyson to win, BUT I think Witherpsoon has a good chance to pull off the upset. My above post spells out a few reasons as to why.
Intimidation was Tyson’s best weapon. Without it he wasn’t the same. In addition, I feel Tyson rapid pace slowed down around round five, and once he was cracked he lost some heart and began to doubt himself a bit.

The general public over rated Tyson beyond belief. Tyson was upset by a 42-1 Douglas. I forget what the odds were on the Holyfield fight, but I heard they opened at 20-1, and were more around 8-1 on fight night.

If I were asked what was Tyson’s best win I would say Ruddock, Spinks or Bruno. IMO, Witherspoon was a little better then these three and would likely have been Tyson’s best win had Tyson fought and beat him between 1986-1990.

[ironchamp]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Intimidation was Tyson’s best weapon. Without it he wasn’t the same. In addition, I feel Tyson rapid pace slowed down around round five, and once he was cracked he lost some heart and began to doubt himself a bit.

The general public over rated Tyson beyond belief. Tyson was upset by a 42-1 Douglas. I forget what the odds were on the Holyfield fight, but I heard they opened at 20-1, and were more around 8-1 on fight night.

If I were asked what was Tyson’s best win I would say Ruddock, Spinks or Bruno. IMO, Witherspoon was a little better then these three and would likely have been Tyson’s best win had Tyson fought and beat him between 1986-1990.

Here's the thing intimidation was never Tyson's main asset until after prison. Before prison whether or not you were intimidated didnt matter. Heavyweights don't top p4p lists consecutively if intimidation is thier main asset.

Witherspoon would have been a great name on his resume but not the best. He was too inconsistent, and even if he showed up in top shape I lean towards Tyson on this one and rightfully so.

With regards to Odds making:

Overhyped fighters dont get held in higher regard even by thier detractors.

With Douglas and Holyfield the sentiment is never Buster beat Tyson or Holyfield beat Tyson rather its Tyson lost to Evander, Tyson lost to Douglas.

You see if Boxing were school:

Tyson would be the kid with a 170 IQ who just winged it.

Holyfield would be the kid with the 110 IQ who worked his ass off to get good grades.

Any trainer who has worked with both fighters agree that Tyson was the better fighter but his poor work ethic is a major detriment.

[anut]

NOT A VERY GOOD CHANCE I LIKE TIM WITHERSPOON AND HE IS UNDERATED.....BUT HIS CROSS ARMED DEFENCE WOULDNT DO HIM ANY GOOD AGAINST TYSON....ALTHOUGH WITHERSPOON HITS VERY HARD WITH THE RIGHT HAND HIS HANDSPEED IS SLOW(UNLIKE BUSTER DOUGLAS AND EVANDER HOLYFIELD...I DONT COUNT LEWIS CAUSE TYSON WAS SO SHOT IT WASNT EVEN FUNNY)..............TYSON BY TKO IN 4 RDS

[Mendoza]

ironchamp Here's the thing intimidation was never Tyson's main asset until after prison. Before prison whether or not you were intimidated didnt matter. Heavyweights don't top p4p lists consecutively if intimidation is thier main asset.

I have to disagree here. Berbick, Spinks, Tubbs, and Stewart were very fearful of Tyson, and they fought Tyson before he was in prison.

Witherspoon would have been a great name on his resume but not the best. He was too inconsistent, and even if he showed up in top shape I lean towards Tyson on this one and rightfully so.

I don't think Witherpsoon would have been the best name on Tyson's resume of fights, but I do think he would be Tyson's best win had Tyson beaten him.

With regards to Odds making: Overhyped fighters dont get held in higher regard even by thier detractors.

Tyson was over hyped in and out of the ring. While he did live up to it for a short period of time, he was over rated in hindsight. The badest man on the planet was beaten a few times. Even in the Lewis fight, many fans felt Tyson would win.

With Douglas and Holyfield the sentiment is never Buster beat Tyson or Holyfield beat Tyson rather its Tyson lost to Evander, Tyson lost to Douglas.

I disagree. Tyson just found himself in matches vs guys who were not afraid of him, and guys who could out box him. When the early KO did not happen for Tyson, he fell apart as the rounds went on.

Any trainer who has worked with both fighters agree that Tyson was the better fighter but his poor work ethic is a major detriment.

Work ethic and the will to win are parts of boxing. Tyson never had great heart. He never got off the deck to win any fight, and had problems controling his emotions in the ring. Tyson at times would foul, and when he was cracked, I think he lost confidence. The audio in Tyson’s corner vs Lewis picks up on Tyson wanting to quit a round before he was knocked out. I agree that Tyson was physically gifted in many ways.

[TBooze]

Tyson would of humilated him, Whitherspoon post Bruno until 1996 was an unmotivated slob. If Bonecrusher took him out, Tyson would of destroyed him, and you are mad to think anything else.

That said, had they met in 1996, I reckon Terrible Tim would of won. Whitherspoon was bang in form that year and at his near terrible best he could of caused Tyson, particularly a post rape Tyson, no end of trouble.

Whitherspoon WU12 (7-5)

[mr. magoo]

Tyson would of humilated him, Whitherspoon post Bruno until 1996 was an unmotivated slob. If Bonecrusher took him out, Tyson would of destroyed him, and you are mad to think anything else.

An unimotivated slob? Did you say any of his later fights in the 90's? Also are you well aware of the circumstances that wen down with the Boncrusher Smith fight? And what's to say that if Witherspoon had cought Tyson on February of 1990, that he might not have upset him?

That said, had they met in 1996, I reckon Terrible Tim would of won. Whitherspoon was bang in form that year and at his near terrible best he could of caused Tyson, particularly a post rape Tyson, no end of trouble.

Certainly a possibility.

[TBooze]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

An unimotivated slob? Did you say any of his later fights in the 90's? Also are you well aware of the circumstances that wen down with the Boncrusher Smith fight? And what's to say that if Witherspoon had cought Tyson on February of 1990, that he might not have upset him?

I knew of Whitherspoon from 82; and yes Smith was a late opponent for Tubbs, bit still Whitherspoon knew what was at stake, and the fact he already easily outpointed Smith should of meant another easy win. But Whitherspoon once again had not bothered to train properly and was mentally not with it.

Whithersppon was his own worse enermy, when he was not scoffing the pies down he was on drugs, he wasted his talent big time.