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Old 09-29-2010, 12:11 PM   #1
Manassa
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Default Pound-for-pound list

Just to avoid confusing Rumsfeld, this is a separate thread for the same subject. If you haven't already, make sure you post your top ten (just ten) in his thread; he'll count them up and we'll have a consensus.

I thought I'd post my top seventeen here with a bit of reasoning. The top ten are set in stone, I think, while the next seven are definites but could be rearranged:

1. Henry Armstrong - this man should be rated no less than #3. Armstrong, in the years before '37, beat numerous rated contenders. After he lost the title in 1940, he beat even more rated contenders. The numbers for his pre and post reign efforts would be enough to secure him a #30 place on their own (going down in history as a Burley-esque 'best never to win a title' legend) - but the bulk of his legacy is based around a superhuman three year run where he went 59-1-1 with 51 knockouts over three weight divisions. Infact, both the loss and draw were controversial; in my mind, Armstrong really went 61-0, won the featherweight, lightweight and welterweight titles, and made nineteen defences, eighteen of those at welterweight. Armstrong was a head-to-head featherweight terror, a great lightweight and the record holder for most welterweight title defences; in three years. Including the rest of his career, he beat more 'name' fighters than Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore.

2. Harry Greb - maybe the only fighter who was more a hurricane than even Armstrong. If, by my own concession, there's an anomaly in my top ten, it's why I don't rate Greb #1. I can't find a reason other than the uncertainty of many of his bouts, but by any account, Greb dominated his era and performed extraordinarily against heavier fighters. The most accomplished middleweight by far, and probably more than a challenge for any light heavyweight, ever. Who else could go 45-0 in one year?

3. Ray Robinson - most people's #1, and understandably. Robinson was known as the best in an era that contained Pep, Louis, Charles, Williams and Ortiz. He was a phenomenon who, even in his own time, was acknowledged as perhaps the best gloved fighter ever. His record, littered with rated victims, backs it all up; the best all-time welterweight is also rated by many as the best filmed middleweight, the title of which he won five times in the slowing half of his career.

4. Sam Langford - here's another one with a lot of uncertainty. What is clear is that Langford spent three quarters of his career with the odds stacked against him; he fought fighters who were taller and heavier, and if he didn't, he was usually held back from giving it his all. Fact; Langford was the most feared fighter of his generation and has gone down in history as the best to never win a title. His record reads a who's who of great lightweights and heavyweights and all the ones in between.

5. Benny Leonard - this is absolute lowest I'll rate this man, because he was a genuine superstar of a strong division. Willie Pep later dominated his division in similar fashion, except Leonard's opposition was undoubtedly stronger on the whole - Britton, Lewis, Kansas, Welsh, Ritchie, Dundee, Kilbane, White, Tendler - Leonard beat all these along with anyone else who stepped anywhere near the 135lbs mark.

6. Ezzard Charles - from '46 to '50, Charles went on an Armstrong-esque run, resisting all challenges and avenging losses all over. One man beat him, and that was Elmer Ray; hard punching heavyweight, who won a very disputed decision and was later knocked out as a returned favour. Over the course of Charles' career, he racked up a list of victories more varied and more impressive than Ray Robinson's; Archie Moore was beaten three times; Joey Maxim, five times. Jimmy Bivins four times, Jersey Joe Walcott and Charley Burley, twice each.

7. Willie Pep - as mentioned before, Pep dominated his division. He really, really did; 135-1-1 was his record going into the first Saddler fight, before which he'd already suffered from a terrible plane crash, and it is documented that he was not the same fighter. Nevertheless, he avenged the loss and, while losing the next two to Saddler, none were as convincing. In the '40s, Pep controlled the featherweight division like Robinson controlled the welterweights, and beat many more top ten opponents than most people realise.

8. Roberto Duran - anything after his lightweight run was just a bonus - seven years as champion and Duran was already rated alongside Benny Leonard and Joe Gans as one of the best ever lightweights. Stepping up and beating one of the very best welterweights after a career's worth record of 72-1 just capped it off nicely. Add to that a junior middleweight title and then a middleweight title in '89, twenty one years into his career and at a height disadvantage of six inches.

9. Archie Moore - in the modern era (post '30?) there hasn't been a fighter who's came back from as many beatings, setbacks and bouts of poverty to reign as champion in his old age as Archie Moore. He tops the list as knockout king, and flourished in an unnatural way in his later years - he was still defending his title at a proposed forty four years of age, and after such a hectic career that seems inhuman to me, especially considering Moore was jumping weight constantly.

10. Barney Ross - a real war hero, but that doesn't matter on this list. Ross takes this spot for me because of his utter dominance over fellow greats. From 135 to 147, Ross was boss of Canzoneri, McLarnin, Petrolle and Garcia, retiring without ever being stopped. In a remarkably short career of just nine years, Ross bowed out with a remarkably tidy record for the era of 72-4-3 because he was just brilliant.


11. Mickey Walker
12. Jimmy McLarnin
13. Joe Gans
14. Bob Fitzsimmons
15. Muhammad Ali
16. Joe Louis
17. Tony Canzoneri
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Old 09-29-2010, 12:48 PM   #2
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
Just to avoid confusing Rumsfeld, this is a separate thread for the same subject. If you haven't already, make sure you post your top ten (just ten) in his thread; he'll count them up and we'll have a consensus.

I thought I'd post my top seventeen here with a bit of reasoning. The top ten are set in stone, I think, while the next seven are definites but could be rearranged:

1. Henry Armstrong - this man should be rated no less than #3. Armstrong, in the years before '37, beat numerous rated contenders. After he lost the title in 1940, he beat even more rated contenders. The numbers for his pre and post reign efforts would be enough to secure him a #30 place on their own (going down in history as a Burley-esque 'best never to win a title' legend) - but the bulk of his legacy is based around a superhuman three year run where he went 59-1-1 with 51 knockouts over three weight divisions. Infact, both the loss and draw were controversial; in my mind, Armstrong really went 61-0, won the featherweight, lightweight and welterweight titles, and made nineteen defences, eighteen of those at welterweight. Armstrong was a head-to-head featherweight terror, a great lightweight and the record holder for most welterweight title defences; in three years. Including the rest of his career, he beat more 'name' fighters than Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore.

2. Harry Greb - maybe the only fighter who was more a hurricane than even Armstrong. If, by my own concession, there's an anomaly in my top ten, it's why I don't rate Greb #1. I can't find a reason other than the uncertainty of many of his bouts, but by any account, Greb dominated his era and performed extraordinarily against heavier fighters. The most accomplished middleweight by far, and probably more than a challenge for any light heavyweight, ever. Who else could go 45-0 in one year?

3. Ray Robinson - most people's #1, and understandably. Robinson was known as the best in an era that contained Pep, Louis, Charles, Williams and Ortiz. He was a phenomenon who, even in his own time, was acknowledged as perhaps the best gloved fighter ever. His record, littered with rated victims, backs it all up; the best all-time welterweight is also rated by many as the best filmed middleweight, the title of which he won five times in the slowing half of his career.

4. Sam Langford - here's another one with a lot of uncertainty. What is clear is that Langford spent three quarters of his career with the odds stacked against him; he fought fighters who were taller and heavier, and if he didn't, he was usually held back from giving it his all. Fact; Langford was the most feared fighter of his generation and has gone down in history as the best to never win a title. His record reads a who's who of great lightweights and heavyweights and all the ones in between.

5. Benny Leonard - this is absolute lowest I'll rate this man, because he was a genuine superstar of a strong division. Willie Pep later dominated his division in similar fashion, except Leonard's opposition was undoubtedly stronger on the whole - Britton, Lewis, Kansas, Welsh, Ritchie, Dundee, Kilbane, White, Tendler - Leonard beat all these along with anyone else who stepped anywhere near the 135lbs mark.

6. Ezzard Charles - from '46 to '50, Charles went on an Armstrong-esque run, resisting all challenges and avenging losses all over. One man beat him, and that was Elmer Ray; hard punching heavyweight, who won a very disputed decision and was later knocked out as a returned favour. Over the course of Charles' career, he racked up a list of victories more varied and more impressive than Ray Robinson's; Archie Moore was beaten three times; Joey Maxim, five times. Jimmy Bivins four times, Jersey Joe Walcott and Charley Burley, twice each.

7. Willie Pep - as mentioned before, Pep dominated his division. He really, really did; 135-1-1 was his record going into the first Saddler fight, before which he'd already suffered from a terrible plane crash, and it is documented that he was not the same fighter. Nevertheless, he avenged the loss and, while losing the next two to Saddler, none were as convincing. In the '40s, Pep controlled the featherweight division like Robinson controlled the welterweights, and beat many more top ten opponents than most people realise.

8. Roberto Duran - anything after his lightweight run was just a bonus - seven years as champion and Duran was already rated alongside Benny Leonard and Joe Gans as one of the best ever lightweights. Stepping up and beating one of the very best welterweights after a career's worth record of 72-1 just capped it off nicely. Add to that a junior middleweight title and then a middleweight title in '89, twenty one years into his career and at a height disadvantage of six inches.

9. Archie Moore - in the modern era (post '30?) there hasn't been a fighter who's came back from as many beatings, setbacks and bouts of poverty to reign as champion in his old age as Archie Moore. He tops the list as knockout king, and flourished in an unnatural way in his later years - he was still defending his title at a proposed forty four years of age, and after such a hectic career that seems inhuman to me, especially considering Moore was jumping weight constantly.

10. Barney Ross - a real war hero, but that doesn't matter on this list. Ross takes this spot for me because of his utter dominance over fellow greats. From 135 to 147, Ross was boss of Canzoneri, McLarnin, Petrolle and Garcia, retiring without ever being stopped. In a remarkably short career of just nine years, Ross bowed out with a remarkably tidy record for the era of 72-4-3 because he was just brilliant.


11. Mickey Walker
12. Jimmy McLarnin
13. Joe Gans
14. Bob Fitzsimmons
15. Muhammad Ali
16. Joe Louis
17. Tony Canzoneri
Good post on the whole although I feel that you rate Ali too low. I disagree with your point in bold however, Hank certainly has an ATG resume and his wins over Ambers, Ross, Garcia, Jenkins etc are all outstanding. But I feel that it is his weight jumping that is his greatest accomplishment.

Ezzard Charles beat Burley twice, Jimmy Bivins numerous times, Lloyd Marshall twice, Archie Moore THREE times, Joe Louis JJ, Walcott twice, Joey Maxim too many times to mention! Personally I feel that Charles can be no lower than four but six isn't a bad ranking.

Whereas Sugar Ray if your talking of win streaks has probably the greatest in history. Gavilan twice, Lamotta five times, Tommy Bell, Zivic, Angott, Turpin and Armstrong himself. Hurricane Hank although past his best was still only thirty when Ray beat him and as you pointed out had beaten numerous ranked contenders after losing his titles. Further wins over guys like Gene Fullmer and Carmen Basilio when well past his best are also big additions to his resume.

So its my opinion thats the two mentioned have better resumes but that takes nothing away from Armstrong who still comes in at three on my list.
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Old 09-29-2010, 12:55 PM   #3
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

Best time to add my top ten.

1. SUGAR RAY ROBINSON
2. HARRY GREB
3. EZZARD CHARLES
4. MUHAMMAD ALI
5. SUGAR RAY LEONARD
6. ROBERTO DURAN
7. HENRY AMRSTRONG
8. JOE LOUIS
9. SAM LANGFORD
10. WILLIE PEP
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Old 09-29-2010, 01:25 PM   #4
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
Just to avoid confusing Rumsfeld, this is a separate thread for the same subject. If you haven't already, make sure you post your top ten (just ten) in his thread; he'll count them up and we'll have a consensus.

I thought I'd post my top seventeen here with a bit of reasoning. The top ten are set in stone, I think, while the next seven are definites but could be rearranged:

1. Henry Armstrong - this man should be rated no less than #3. Armstrong, in the years before '37, beat numerous rated contenders. After he lost the title in 1940, he beat even more rated contenders. The numbers for his pre and post reign efforts would be enough to secure him a #30 place on their own (going down in history as a Burley-esque 'best never to win a title' legend) - but the bulk of his legacy is based around a superhuman three year run where he went 59-1-1 with 51 knockouts over three weight divisions. Infact, both the loss and draw were controversial; in my mind, Armstrong really went 61-0, won the featherweight, lightweight and welterweight titles, and made nineteen defences, eighteen of those at welterweight. Armstrong was a head-to-head featherweight terror, a great lightweight and the record holder for most welterweight title defences; in three years. Including the rest of his career, he beat more 'name' fighters than Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore.

2. Harry Greb - maybe the only fighter who was more a hurricane than even Armstrong. If, by my own concession, there's an anomaly in my top ten, it's why I don't rate Greb #1. I can't find a reason other than the uncertainty of many of his bouts, but by any account, Greb dominated his era and performed extraordinarily against heavier fighters. The most accomplished middleweight by far, and probably more than a challenge for any light heavyweight, ever. Who else could go 45-0 in one year?

3. Ray Robinson - most people's #1, and understandably. Robinson was known as the best in an era that contained Pep, Louis, Charles, Williams and Ortiz. He was a phenomenon who, even in his own time, was acknowledged as perhaps the best gloved fighter ever. His record, littered with rated victims, backs it all up; the best all-time welterweight is also rated by many as the best filmed middleweight, the title of which he won five times in the slowing half of his career.

4. Sam Langford - here's another one with a lot of uncertainty. What is clear is that Langford spent three quarters of his career with the odds stacked against him; he fought fighters who were taller and heavier, and if he didn't, he was usually held back from giving it his all. Fact; Langford was the most feared fighter of his generation and has gone down in history as the best to never win a title. His record reads a who's who of great lightweights and heavyweights and all the ones in between.

5. Benny Leonard - this is absolute lowest I'll rate this man, because he was a genuine superstar of a strong division. Willie Pep later dominated his division in similar fashion, except Leonard's opposition was undoubtedly stronger on the whole - Britton, Lewis, Kansas, Welsh, Ritchie, Dundee, Kilbane, White, Tendler - Leonard beat all these along with anyone else who stepped anywhere near the 135lbs mark.

6. Ezzard Charles - from '46 to '50, Charles went on an Armstrong-esque run, resisting all challenges and avenging losses all over. One man beat him, and that was Elmer Ray; hard punching heavyweight, who won a very disputed decision and was later knocked out as a returned favour. Over the course of Charles' career, he racked up a list of victories more varied and more impressive than Ray Robinson's; Archie Moore was beaten three times; Joey Maxim, five times. Jimmy Bivins four times, Jersey Joe Walcott and Charley Burley, twice each.

7. Willie Pep - as mentioned before, Pep dominated his division. He really, really did; 135-1-1 was his record going into the first Saddler fight, before which he'd already suffered from a terrible plane crash, and it is documented that he was not the same fighter. Nevertheless, he avenged the loss and, while losing the next two to Saddler, none were as convincing. In the '40s, Pep controlled the featherweight division like Robinson controlled the welterweights, and beat many more top ten opponents than most people realise.

8. Roberto Duran - anything after his lightweight run was just a bonus - seven years as champion and Duran was already rated alongside Benny Leonard and Joe Gans as one of the best ever lightweights. Stepping up and beating one of the very best welterweights after a career's worth record of 72-1 just capped it off nicely. Add to that a junior middleweight title and then a middleweight title in '89, twenty one years into his career and at a height disadvantage of six inches.

9. Archie Moore - in the modern era (post '30?) there hasn't been a fighter who's came back from as many beatings, setbacks and bouts of poverty to reign as champion in his old age as Archie Moore. He tops the list as knockout king, and flourished in an unnatural way in his later years - he was still defending his title at a proposed forty four years of age, and after such a hectic career that seems inhuman to me, especially considering Moore was jumping weight constantly.

10. Barney Ross - a real war hero, but that doesn't matter on this list. Ross takes this spot for me because of his utter dominance over fellow greats. From 135 to 147, Ross was boss of Canzoneri, McLarnin, Petrolle and Garcia, retiring without ever being stopped. In a remarkably short career of just nine years, Ross bowed out with a remarkably tidy record for the era of 72-4-3 because he was just brilliant.


11. Mickey Walker
12. Jimmy McLarnin
13. Joe Gans
14. Bob Fitzsimmons
15. Muhammad Ali
16. Joe Louis
17. Tony Canzoneri
Where do you place Gene Tunney ?
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Old 09-29-2010, 01:38 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
Just to avoid confusing Rumsfeld, this is a separate thread for the same subject. If you haven't already, make sure you post your top ten (just ten) in his thread; he'll count them up and we'll have a consensus.

I thought I'd post my top seventeen here with a bit of reasoning. The top ten are set in stone, I think, while the next seven are definites but could be rearranged:

1. Henry Armstrong - this man should be rated no less than #3. Armstrong, in the years before '37, beat numerous rated contenders. After he lost the title in 1940, he beat even more rated contenders. The numbers for his pre and post reign efforts would be enough to secure him a #30 place on their own (going down in history as a Burley-esque 'best never to win a title' legend) - but the bulk of his legacy is based around a superhuman three year run where he went 59-1-1 with 51 knockouts over three weight divisions. Infact, both the loss and draw were controversial; in my mind, Armstrong really went 61-0, won the featherweight, lightweight and welterweight titles, and made nineteen defences, eighteen of those at welterweight. Armstrong was a head-to-head featherweight terror, a great lightweight and the record holder for most welterweight title defences; in three years. Including the rest of his career, he beat more 'name' fighters than Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore.

2. Harry Greb - maybe the only fighter who was more a hurricane than even Armstrong. If, by my own concession, there's an anomaly in my top ten, it's why I don't rate Greb #1. I can't find a reason other than the uncertainty of many of his bouts, but by any account, Greb dominated his era and performed extraordinarily against heavier fighters. The most accomplished middleweight by far, and probably more than a challenge for any light heavyweight, ever. Who else could go 45-0 in one year?

3. Ray Robinson - most people's #1, and understandably. Robinson was known as the best in an era that contained Pep, Louis, Charles, Williams and Ortiz. He was a phenomenon who, even in his own time, was acknowledged as perhaps the best gloved fighter ever. His record, littered with rated victims, backs it all up; the best all-time welterweight is also rated by many as the best filmed middleweight, the title of which he won five times in the slowing half of his career.

4. Sam Langford - here's another one with a lot of uncertainty. What is clear is that Langford spent three quarters of his career with the odds stacked against him; he fought fighters who were taller and heavier, and if he didn't, he was usually held back from giving it his all. Fact; Langford was the most feared fighter of his generation and has gone down in history as the best to never win a title. His record reads a who's who of great lightweights and heavyweights and all the ones in between.

5. Benny Leonard - this is absolute lowest I'll rate this man, because he was a genuine superstar of a strong division. Willie Pep later dominated his division in similar fashion, except Leonard's opposition was undoubtedly stronger on the whole - Britton, Lewis, Kansas, Welsh, Ritchie, Dundee, Kilbane, White, Tendler - Leonard beat all these along with anyone else who stepped anywhere near the 135lbs mark.

6. Ezzard Charles - from '46 to '50, Charles went on an Armstrong-esque run, resisting all challenges and avenging losses all over. One man beat him, and that was Elmer Ray; hard punching heavyweight, who won a very disputed decision and was later knocked out as a returned favour. Over the course of Charles' career, he racked up a list of victories more varied and more impressive than Ray Robinson's; Archie Moore was beaten three times; Joey Maxim, five times. Jimmy Bivins four times, Jersey Joe Walcott and Charley Burley, twice each.

7. Willie Pep - as mentioned before, Pep dominated his division. He really, really did; 135-1-1 was his record going into the first Saddler fight, before which he'd already suffered from a terrible plane crash, and it is documented that he was not the same fighter. Nevertheless, he avenged the loss and, while losing the next two to Saddler, none were as convincing. In the '40s, Pep controlled the featherweight division like Robinson controlled the welterweights, and beat many more top ten opponents than most people realise.

8. Roberto Duran - anything after his lightweight run was just a bonus - seven years as champion and Duran was already rated alongside Benny Leonard and Joe Gans as one of the best ever lightweights. Stepping up and beating one of the very best welterweights after a career's worth record of 72-1 just capped it off nicely. Add to that a junior middleweight title and then a middleweight title in '89, twenty one years into his career and at a height disadvantage of six inches.

9. Archie Moore - in the modern era (post '30?) there hasn't been a fighter who's came back from as many beatings, setbacks and bouts of poverty to reign as champion in his old age as Archie Moore. He tops the list as knockout king, and flourished in an unnatural way in his later years - he was still defending his title at a proposed forty four years of age, and after such a hectic career that seems inhuman to me, especially considering Moore was jumping weight constantly.

10. Barney Ross - a real war hero, but that doesn't matter on this list. Ross takes this spot for me because of his utter dominance over fellow greats. From 135 to 147, Ross was boss of Canzoneri, McLarnin, Petrolle and Garcia, retiring without ever being stopped. In a remarkably short career of just nine years, Ross bowed out with a remarkably tidy record for the era of 72-4-3 because he was just brilliant.


11. Mickey Walker
12. Jimmy McLarnin
13. Joe Gans
14. Bob Fitzsimmons
15. Muhammad Ali
16. Joe Louis
17. Tony Canzoneri
Interesting list you have....A couple of points..
1- Harry Greb beat much more greater fighters than Henry Armstrong
did..Greb also had about 120 MORE recorded fights than Henry did,and
still aside from his first year,past peak Greb never was stopped...
2-Armstrong , because of his one dimensional style,was badly cut up
and stopped by a good but not great Fritzie Zivic in 1940, when Henry
was 28 years old...So I have to rate Greb over Armstrong, more bouts
against far greater overall opposition...Harry was faster and could scoot out of danger when needed...Overall better than Armstrong IMO...
3-To put Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore over Joe Louis P4P,i believe
is wrong...Louis at about 198 pounds, might have been the greatest
fighting machine that ever lived...even when Louis kod Conn in 1941,
and past his peak, no one would pick Charles or Moore over Louis,
and taking in the account of the weight difference,P4P.
4-Ditto the Jack Dempsey of Toledo,at 187 pounds demolisheg men 30
to 50 pounds heavier...Before going Hollywood, he was an earlier edition
of Roberto Duran...Lithe, mean and vicious...
Good list M...
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Old 09-29-2010, 02:05 PM   #6
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All the right names are there I think, obviously most would argue about their placement but well its all opinion. Im wondering about a few things though, especially since I agree very often with you.

Personally I cant really split the trinity. Ross proved himself to be the best, so much is clear but Canzoneri and McLarnin Im not so sure about. I think you can be ranked above the other. But I dont think there is enough space for four fighters between them. Id like to hear your reasoning here. Would be appreciated.

Im also surprised to see Bob Fitzsimmons outside the Top10. He was successful in numerous weightclasses, dominant, had the longevity. Care to explain this choice a bit?
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Old 09-29-2010, 02:13 PM   #7
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Very good list Manassa, the only one i disagree on is the one i disagreed on in Rumsfield's thread, i'm quite busy now so there's no point in me going on about it again, i've made all my feelings public about it in that thread anyway. Apart from that in think it's a fine list.
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Old 09-29-2010, 02:52 PM   #8
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Its a very fine top 17 as these things go, I like it. Of course, I want to ask you about the things that stick out, not the things I disagree with.

1) Leonard above Charles.

I think that Benny belongs in the ten too, I thought it was arguable a couple of years back but i've changed my mind about that, and your postings on him are not a small reason why. You say five is the lowest you would ever rate him, but this places him above Charles. You stress opposition beaten throughout your list and you point about Leonards is well made. But what about Ezzard's? Charles started earlier than Leonard with his victory over the great Burley (I know you have your reservations about him, but i'm sure you acknowledge hes a great fighter) and his level of competition, it is clear, is as good as Leonard's - don't the three victories over Moore really put him over the top though? It's never so simple in the real world of course, but on these lists Charles and Moore, as well as being in the absolutely highest class of fighter, these guys are the near universal pick for #1 and #2 at their weight - in other words, Leonard beat the second greatest (or even greatest, according to some) fighter in the history of his best division three times. If Leonard had beaten, say, Duran three times at the weight, where would you rank him? Possibly #1? I think Charles should be above Leonard. As an aside, wouldn't you agree that Charles, as well as claiming the most incredible domination of any fighter in any series ever, was better at moving through the weights, also a staple of p4p rankings?


2) Bob Fitzsimmons.

I think your ranking of him is the only really upsetting aspect of your list. Fitzsimmons is greater than half the fighters, at least, that you have above him for me. Three weight world champion, he defeated perhaps the best fighter in the world other than himself at 154 and then steps up to HW to take out the reigning HW champ with a single punch. As if that weren't enough, he came back from losses against the greatest HW who had lived up until that point - the only man to beat him for the fifteen year period between 1890 and 1905 - to lift the title in the LHW division and become a three weight world champion at the age of forty. OK, he didn't exactly buzzaw through his divisions like the next three weight world champ, Armstrong, but that's part of the reason he is below Armstrong. Only one man could beat him when he was at his prime, the best HW in the world - and his best fighting weight was 168, his best performance possibly down at 154 verus ATG Dempsey. His credentials make him every bit as much a lock as Leonard, and I rate him higher.
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Old 09-29-2010, 02:58 PM   #9
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Damn, I came on to see Pachilles list but it hasn't happened yet. I'll come back in a few hours.
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Old 09-29-2010, 03:09 PM   #10
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01 - Sam Langford
02 - Harry Greb
03 - Sugar Ray Robinson
04 - Henry Armstrong
05 - Ezzard Charles
06 - Bob Fitzsimmons
07 - Muhammad Ali
08 - Benny Leonard
09 - Roberto Duran
10 - Willie Pep
11 - Mickey Walker
12 - Joe Gans
13 - Archie Moore
14 - Barney Ross
15 - Sugar Ray Leonard
16 - Joe Louis
17 - Jimmy McLarnin
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Old 09-29-2010, 03:10 PM   #11
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

1 ray robinson
2 mike tyson
3 joe louis
4 armstrong
5 ray leanord
6 roberto duran
7 jack dempsey
8 joe frazier
9 larry holmes
10 gene tunney
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Old 09-29-2010, 03:10 PM   #12
El Bujia
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

Packey McFarland continues to get shafted in these lists.
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Old 09-29-2010, 03:13 PM   #13
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

Not if Senya is on the prowl.
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Old 09-29-2010, 03:17 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexvoce View Post
1 ray robinson
2 mike tyson
3 joe louis
4 armstrong
5 ray leanord
6 roberto duran
7 jack dempsey
8 joe frazier
9 larry holmes
10 gene tunney
I agree with this list. Robinson is a little to high, though.
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Old 09-29-2010, 03:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Its a very fine top 17 as these things go, I like it. Of course, I want to ask you about the things that stick out, not the things I disagree with.

1) Leonard above Charles.

I think that Benny belongs in the ten too, I thought it was arguable a couple of years back but i've changed my mind about that, and your postings on him are not a small reason why. You say five is the lowest you would ever rate him, but this places him above Charles. You stress opposition beaten throughout your list and you point about Leonards is well made. But what about Ezzard's? Charles started earlier than Leonard with his victory over the great Burley (I know you have your reservations about him, but i'm sure you acknowledge hes a great fighter) and his level of competition, it is clear, is as good as Leonard's - don't the three victories over Moore really put him over the top though? It's never so simple in the real world of course, but on these lists Charles and Moore, as well as being in the absolutely highest class of fighter, these guys are the near universal pick for #1 and #2 at their weight - in other words, Leonard beat the second greatest (or even greatest, according to some) fighter in the history of his best division three times. If Leonard had beaten, say, Duran three times at the weight, where would you rank him? Possibly #1? I think Charles should be above Leonard. As an aside, wouldn't you agree that Charles, as well as claiming the most incredible domination of any fighter in any series ever, was better at moving through the weights, also a staple of p4p rankings?


2) Bob Fitzsimmons.

I think your ranking of him is the only really upsetting aspect of your list. Fitzsimmons is greater than half the fighters, at least, that you have above him for me. Three weight world champion, he defeated perhaps the best fighter in the world other than himself at 154 and then steps up to HW to take out the reigning HW champ with a single punch. As if that weren't enough, he came back from losses against the greatest HW who had lived up until that point - the only man to beat him for the fifteen year period between 1890 and 1905 - to lift the title in the LHW division and become a three weight world champion at the age of forty. OK, he didn't exactly buzzaw through his divisions like the next three weight world champ, Armstrong, but that's part of the reason he is below Armstrong. Only one man could beat him when he was at his prime, the best HW in the world - and his best fighting weight was 168, his best performance possibly down at 154 verus ATG Dempsey. His credentials make him every bit as much a lock as Leonard, and I rate him higher.
That actually would be Barney Ross. I agree with your argument though.
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