Pound-for-pound list

[Swarmer]

1)Ray Robinson
2)Henry Armstrong
3)Harry Greb
4)Muhammad Ali
5)Joe Louis
6)Sam Langford
7)Benny Leonard
8 )Roberto Duran
9)Willie Pep
10)Bob Fitzsimmons

Just Missed Top 10: Ray Leonard, Charles, Tunney, Archie Moore, Joe Gans, Jack Johnson

[Bokaj]

Below is what I posted in Rumsfeld's thread. Perhaps B. Leonard and Fitz should have been there. But don't know on whose expense, though. For example, I think Louis makes too few lists. Gans perhaps should make way for Leonard, though... Very tough. Well, I'll stick with it until convinced otherwise.


My criteria:

1. Record. Wins and losses. Opposition, but also size and age difference (distance from prime) are important factors

2. Perfomances. How impressive were the wins and how wide/close were the losses? Preferred source for this is film, but if not avalaible I'll go for first hand accounts (match reports).

3. ...

4. ...

5. General assesement of the fighter from contemprorary sources. Due diligence is important here and that's why it's a lesser criteria. For example, how much weight should I put on Dundee rating Ali ahead of Leonard? Not much, considering how he phrased it.


From that:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Willie Pep
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Muhammad Ali
7. Sam Langford
8. Roberto Duran
9. Joe Gans
10. Joe Louis

[Addie]

Originally Posted by Swarmer

1)Ray Robinson
2)Henry Armstrong
3)Harry Greb
4)Muhammad Ali
5)Joe Louis
6)Sam Langford
7)Benny Leonard
8 )Roberto Duran
9)Willie Pep
10)Bob Fitzsimmons

Just Missed Top 10: Ray Leonard, Charles, Tunney, Fitzsimmons, Archie Moore, Joe Gans, Jack Johnson

Where's Jones...

[Swarmer]

Originally Posted by Addie

Where's Jones...

about 20 spaces down getting KTFO by danny green and beating up on sanitation workers and getting outslapped by calzaghe and avoiding eastern bloc fighters and not rematching hopkins and toney and and...

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by Bokaj

Opposition, but also size and age difference (and point in career) are important factors

I agree that difference in size is important, but what is the relevance of difference in age?

[Swarmer]

Hmmm, y'all are making me reconsider not having Ez in the top 10. He is one of my all time favorites too but I guess I'm putting way too much emphasis on his HW campaign.

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by McGrain

I agree that difference in size is important, but what is the relevance of difference in age?

If a 45-year old fighter beats a 28-year old one it generally (my "point in career" can at times adjust this a bit) makes it more impressive. Duran-Barkley, for example, is so damn impressive because of differences in both size and age.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by Bokaj

If a 45-year old fighter beats a 25-year old one it generelly (my "point in career" can at times adjust this a bit) makes it more impressive. Duran-Barkley, for example, is so damn impressive because of differences in both size and age.

Most definitely, 45 is at the extreme end of the scale and that makes a performance exceptional - but what about more reasonably? I mean a 34 year old beating a 21 year old for example?

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Most definitely, 45 is at the extreme end of the scale and that makes a performance exceptional - but what about more reasonably? I mean a 34 year old beating a 21 year old for example?

It was mostly meant for the more extreme examples. The above example is more difficult. Here's where "point in career" comes into play in a big way. If both are late bloomers it means less. If a 34-year old Holmes beat a 21-year old Lewis, I wouldn't think it was worth that much. But if a 34-year old Holyfield beat a 21-year old Tyson (instead of the version he did beat) it would be an even greater win than the ones he has over him.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by Bokaj

It was mostly meant for the more extreme examples. The above example is more difficult. Here's where "point in career" comes into play in a big way. If both are late bloomers it means less. If a 34-year old Lewis beat a 21-year old Lewis, I wouldn't think it was worth mentioning. But if a 34-year old Holyfield beat a 21-year old Tyson (instead of the version he did beat) it would be an even greater win than the ones he has over him.

I think this is the salient point. It's the form the fighter is displaying rather than the number that defines them. The danger with listing age as your #1 criteria is that you'll end up penalising guys for beating opponents who are say, 35, as opposed to 21...for no better reason than they were that age when they lost.

[Vic-JofreBRASIL]

1-Sugar Ray Robinson
2-Harry Greb
3-Sugar Ray Leonard
4-Sam Langford
5-Joe Louis
6-Henry Armnstrong
7-Muhammad Ali
8-Willie Pep
9-Benny Leonard
10-Eder Jofre

11-Roberto Duran/ Joe Gans (Tie)
13-Gene Tunney
14-Carlos Monzon
15-Manny Pacquiao

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by McGrain

I think this is the salient point. It's the form the fighter is displaying rather than the number that defines them. The danger with listing age as your #1 criteria is that you'll end up penalising guys for beating opponents who are say, 35, as opposed to 21...for no better reason than they were that age when they lost.

That's why I put "point in career" in parenthesis next to it. May should make it clearer, though, but it's hard. If I just use "distance from prime" it would in a way favour fighters with short primes since there wouldn't be any premium for staying on a high level for a long time. Any suggestions?

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by Bokaj

That's why I put "point in career" in parenthesis next to it. May should make it clearer, though, but it's hard. If I just use "distance from prime" it would in a way favour fighters with short primes since there wouldn't be any premium for staying on a high level for a long time. Any suggestions?

Rather than having rules for judging abilities of the fighters in question, i'd just judge the as best you can based upon the info at hand.

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Rather than having rules for judging abilities of the fighters in question, i'd just judge the as best you can based upon the info at hand.

Well, the abilities are in what they have achieved, with taking certain factors in account (age size, opposition, manner of win/loss etc).

Are you using criteria similar to those of Stonehands?

[Pachilles]

Originally Posted by Addie

Damn, I came on to see Pachilles list but it hasn't happened yet. I'll come back in a few hours.

1) Sugar Ray Robinson
2) Muhammad Ali
3) Willie Pep
4) Sugar Ray Leonard
5) Pernell Whitaker
6) Roy Jones Jr
7) Roberto Duran
Salvador Sanchez
9) Marvin Hagler
10) Thomas Hearns

Joe Louis, Manny Pacquiao, Rocky Marciano, Jose Napoles, Ricardo Lopez could've all found themselves on here.