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Old 09-30-2010, 10:56 AM   #46
Bill Butcher
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Willie Pep
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Roberto Duran
6. Sugar Ray Leonard
7. Joe Louis
8. Pernell Whitaker
9. Julio Cesar Chavez
10. Thomas Hearns

Ps. Those are the 10 best I`ve seen good footage of & Chavez & Whitaker are more or less tied IMO but no ties allowed so Pea can have it today, JCC can have it another day.

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Old 09-30-2010, 11:10 AM   #47
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

1. Greb
2. Robinson
3. Armstrong
4. Langford
5. Charles
6. Tunney
7. Fitzsimmons
8. Louis
9. B.Leonard
10. Duran
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:20 AM   #48
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Willie Pep
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Roberto Duran
6. Sugar Ray Leonard
7. Joe Louis
8. Pernell Whitaker
9. Julio Cesar Chavez
10. Thomas Hearns

Ps. Those are the 10 best I`ve seen good footage of & Chavez & Whitaker are more or less tied IMO but no ties allowed so Pea can have it today, JCC can have it another day.

an honest list
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:21 AM   #49
Bill Butcher
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

Quote:
Originally Posted by enquirer View Post
1) manos de piedra.
Duran is neither greater nor better than Robinson, think about it !
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:35 AM   #50
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

I have already thought about it punchy.
Whose ****in list is it?
And there isnt a huge deal between 1-10 so get over yourself...
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:48 AM   #51
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

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Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
It was a name, off the top of my head, of an underappreciated fighter; I never meant he was a foremost legend, don't worry. Thil was certainly greater.


And my left bollock is a King Edward.
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Old 09-30-2010, 12:06 PM   #52
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

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Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
You can talk all you like, Mr Hands. Pull rank and be as condescending as you like with me. I dont care about my credibility in this little sub-culture. I just love watching boxing
When someone dismisses the obvious, hard-fought greatness of a guy like Armstrong, they're gonna catch hooks to the cranium. Letting something like that slide just ain't in me. Attacking disagreeable posts should be expected on a damn boxing forum.

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Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
I can tie my own velcro and common sense tells me that this guy...

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

would be breakfast for either of these guys...

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Same goes for a Jones Jr, Bob Fitz comparison. Or a Dempsey, Tyson/Ali comparison. Or a B Leonard, Ray Leonard comparison. Or a Ross, Duran comparison.
Common sense should tell you not to be so sure about what happens in any professional bout. I am not one to proclaim the technical greatness of Fitz and guys from that era, but that isn't to say they weren't great. It is too say that they competed in an essentially different sport.

Writing off Benny Leonard, Dempsey, and Barney Ross as primitive is incredibly out of place on this forum. But you have that right; as I have the right to question how much you know about what the rest of the boxing world has established as the "Golden Era."
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Old 09-30-2010, 12:11 PM   #53
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

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Barney Ross isn't primitive by any stretch of the imagination though Pachilles. Many people who believe that boxers from the earliest glove boxing days were primitive, they credit Ross as being the catalyst for the revolution of boxing technique. Ross is an atg technician without any reservations.
Ross for me is the start of 'modern' boxing technique. He managed to beat numerous ATG's with virtually no punch to speak of, just brilliant boxing ability and ring generalship. I think that if Pachilles had watched some of Ross (and there is plenty of film available) he wouldn't have said that about him.
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Old 09-30-2010, 12:55 PM   #54
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
[/u]

And my left bollock is a King Edward.
Is it? Thank you, but next time a real sentence would be nice.

Anyway - I don't know why some people put so much stock in 'Hagler would've eaten Fitzsimmons' - I'm sure Henry VIII would find it hard ruling a England today, but you judge what he did for his time.
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Old 09-30-2010, 01:00 PM   #55
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

I make my list based on dominance and abilty against world class opposition

Robinson
Jones Jr
Duran
Mayweather
Whitaker
Ali
Leonard
Charles
Pep
Hearns/Patterson (2way tie)

Why the following don't make my top10:

Langford - he has an excellent case but I feel his style maybe too primitive dropping him down my ability list.

Burley - close but not quite as dominant as he should have been, perhaps down to him fighting much bigger men

Tunney - very close maybe he should be in its hard to call. Beat every man he faced, which is impressive domination over 2 divisions. I actually think he may well be better overall than Greb, yes he has the defeat and close fight to Greb who's smaller but Greb also lost to smaller men (and more of them), overall he came out on top, beat Dempsey and Loughran and some top HWs. He didnt face all the top HW talent and was probably only facing world level talent for 6 years

Armstrong - a champ for only 3 years. Didnt face top WWs like Burley, Holman Williams or Cocoa Kid. Went life and death , lost his title to a none great in Zivic in his prime, went life and death with Ambers twice. From 130-140lbs he is inferior to Whitaker, Duran and Mayweather and was lose to all 3 in my view. Neither is he as dominant as any of them

Benny Leonard - comes very close I rate him above Ross certainly, his skills look better on film, he was very dominant and maybe he should be top10. Who knows maybe he should rate over Greb/Tunney P4P of the time too? I rate him above Ross but below Duran/Mayweather/Whitaker at the weight, 4 from around the same weight class is probably 1 too many

Greb - He could well be top10, but without footage I can't say for sure, both Tunney and Loughran were likely pre-prime though. I like to judge who I can see, aswell as great wins he has some hurtful losses, he lost and drew with a WW in his prime, drew his series against both of the Gibbons bros including a bad beating, lost his series to Tunney, lost his series to Flowers, lost to O'Donnel in his first title shot. I'm not sure he's dominant or good enough but maybe he is, if he showed impressive skills on film on par with any in my top10 he makes the cut, but from what I've seen thats unlikely

Moore - at his absolute best I don't see him beating elites like Charles or Patterson

Hagler - only fighting in 1 division and losing, he has a case for being above Hearns though but not Leonard

Ross - near his prime when he was completely dominated by Armstrong, being dominated in such a way in his prime

Gans - really not sure he's advanced enough to cut in the ability stakes, but maybe I'm wrong
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Old 09-30-2010, 01:04 PM   #56
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

Basically PowerPuncher your list is of who you think would whoop the most ass in a time machine?? we have very similar lists
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Old 09-30-2010, 01:06 PM   #57
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Basically PowerPuncher your list is of who you think would whoop the most ass in a time machine?? we have very similar lists
Yes and ofcourse a 'Honey I Shrunk all the boxing champions to the exact same size' Machine, while I threaten to stamp on them if they don't duke it out for my amusement
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Old 09-30-2010, 01:08 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post
Writing off Benny Leonard, Dempsey, and Barney Ross as primitive is incredibly out of place on this forum. But you have that right; as I have the right to question how much you know about what the rest of the boxing world has established as the "Golden Era."
If it weren't for stop watches I'm sure some would argue Jessie Owens the greatest fastest sprinter of all time. Even with stop watches Janitor trys to argue he's faster
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Old 09-30-2010, 01:42 PM   #59
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Just to avoid confusing Rumsfeld, this is a separate thread for the same subject. If you haven't already, make sure you post your top ten (just ten) in his thread; he'll count them up and we'll have a consensus.

I thought I'd post my top seventeen here with a bit of reasoning. The top ten are set in stone, I think, while the next seven are definites but could be rearranged:

1. Henry Armstrong - this man should be rated no less than #3. Armstrong, in the years before '37, beat numerous rated contenders. After he lost the title in 1940, he beat even more rated contenders. The numbers for his pre and post reign efforts would be enough to secure him a #30 place on their own (going down in history as a Burley-esque 'best never to win a title' legend) - but the bulk of his legacy is based around a superhuman three year run where he went 59-1-1 with 51 knockouts over three weight divisions. Infact, both the loss and draw were controversial; in my mind, Armstrong really went 61-0, won the featherweight, lightweight and welterweight titles, and made nineteen defences, eighteen of those at welterweight. Armstrong was a head-to-head featherweight terror, a great lightweight and the record holder for most welterweight title defences; in three years. Including the rest of his career, he beat more 'name' fighters than Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore.

2. Harry Greb - maybe the only fighter who was more a hurricane than even Armstrong. If, by my own concession, there's an anomaly in my top ten, it's why I don't rate Greb #1. I can't find a reason other than the uncertainty of many of his bouts, but by any account, Greb dominated his era and performed extraordinarily against heavier fighters. The most accomplished middleweight by far, and probably more than a challenge for any light heavyweight, ever. Who else could go 45-0 in one year?

3. Ray Robinson - most people's #1, and understandably. Robinson was known as the best in an era that contained Pep, Louis, Charles, Williams and Ortiz. He was a phenomenon who, even in his own time, was acknowledged as perhaps the best gloved fighter ever. His record, littered with rated victims, backs it all up; the best all-time welterweight is also rated by many as the best filmed middleweight, the title of which he won five times in the slowing half of his career.

4. Sam Langford - here's another one with a lot of uncertainty. What is clear is that Langford spent three quarters of his career with the odds stacked against him; he fought fighters who were taller and heavier, and if he didn't, he was usually held back from giving it his all. Fact; Langford was the most feared fighter of his generation and has gone down in history as the best to never win a title. His record reads a who's who of great lightweights and heavyweights and all the ones in between.

5. Benny Leonard - this is absolute lowest I'll rate this man, because he was a genuine superstar of a strong division. Willie Pep later dominated his division in similar fashion, except Leonard's opposition was undoubtedly stronger on the whole - Britton, Lewis, Kansas, Welsh, Ritchie, Dundee, Kilbane, White, Tendler - Leonard beat all these along with anyone else who stepped anywhere near the 135lbs mark.

6. Ezzard Charles - from '46 to '50, Charles went on an Armstrong-esque run, resisting all challenges and avenging losses all over. One man beat him, and that was Elmer Ray; hard punching heavyweight, who won a very disputed decision and was later knocked out as a returned favour. Over the course of Charles' career, he racked up a list of victories more varied and more impressive than Ray Robinson's; Archie Moore was beaten three times; Joey Maxim, five times. Jimmy Bivins four times, Jersey Joe Walcott and Charley Burley, twice each.

7. Willie Pep - as mentioned before, Pep dominated his division. He really, really did; 135-1-1 was his record going into the first Saddler fight, before which he'd already suffered from a terrible plane crash, and it is documented that he was not the same fighter. Nevertheless, he avenged the loss and, while losing the next two to Saddler, none were as convincing. In the '40s, Pep controlled the featherweight division like Robinson controlled the welterweights, and beat many more top ten opponents than most people realise.

8. Roberto Duran - anything after his lightweight run was just a bonus - seven years as champion and Duran was already rated alongside Benny Leonard and Joe Gans as one of the best ever lightweights. Stepping up and beating one of the very best welterweights after a career's worth record of 72-1 just capped it off nicely. Add to that a junior middleweight title and then a middleweight title in '89, twenty one years into his career and at a height disadvantage of six inches.

9. Archie Moore - in the modern era (post '30?) there hasn't been a fighter who's came back from as many beatings, setbacks and bouts of poverty to reign as champion in his old age as Archie Moore. He tops the list as knockout king, and flourished in an unnatural way in his later years - he was still defending his title at a proposed forty four years of age, and after such a hectic career that seems inhuman to me, especially considering Moore was jumping weight constantly.

10. Barney Ross - a real war hero, but that doesn't matter on this list. Ross takes this spot for me because of his utter dominance over fellow greats. From 135 to 147, Ross was boss of Canzoneri, McLarnin, Petrolle and Garcia, retiring without ever being stopped. In a remarkably short career of just nine years, Ross bowed out with a remarkably tidy record for the era of 72-4-3 because he was just brilliant.


11. Mickey Walker
12. Jimmy McLarnin
13. Joe Gans
14. Bob Fitzsimmons
15. Muhammad Ali
16. Joe Louis
17. Tony Canzoneri


Very solid top ten.
My somewhat tentative one.
1 Greb
2 Armstrong
3 Robinson
4 Fitzsimmons
5 Langford
6 Leonard
7 Charles
8 Pep
9 Ross
10 Duran

11 Moore
12 Canzoneri
13 Walcott
14 Gans
15 Wilde
16 Walker
17 Ali

Very tricky, another day ,probably different
Should, Mclarnin,Pacman,Jofre, Ray Leonard be there ?
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Old 09-30-2010, 04:14 PM   #60
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Default Re: Pound-for-pound list

I don't think Jofre should be in there; he is one who tends to get overrated on lists like these. Ray Leonard, too... He's got great individual wins but a fighter like Tony Canzoneri was in a much tougher situation, what with fighting eight times a year.

Arguello, Chavez, Leonard, Napoles, Hearns, Saddler and Monzon would probably fill out my top twenty five.

I find Wilde & Walcott hard to rate. Same with modern day fighters, I'll give it a few years and look back properly.
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