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Old 11-04-2007, 10:21 PM   #16
Longhhorn71
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Default Re: Cassius Clay vs. Doug Jones

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Originally Posted by Hank
I was at that fight, have no idea of my round by round, I thought it should have gone to Jones, or been a draw. A lot of people cheering for Clay (he had not changed name yet) were booing decision after fight.

I also saw 3rd fight with Norton, and that one had a bad reaction from ringside Ali fans, even ones betting on him thought he lost---but they still took their money
Hank my friend. You must have been living in or about NYC
during the time of some of the great fights as Madison Square Garden.

You might enlighten is all if you saw some of the Griffith-Benvenuiti fights, or the Fight of the Century and its sequel, or maybe a Duran fight (Buchanan or DeJesus?).

Thanks.
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Old 11-05-2007, 05:05 AM   #17
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Default Re: Cassius Clay vs. Doug Jones

I have watched this fight several times. Ali clearly won. On a round by round basis, perhaps 6-3-1.

Ali was disliked by most at this time because of his bragging and boastful ways. Moreover his fulfilling of predictions had begun to make him look like an extraordinary fighter. Many people wanted to see him getting, what according to them was, his just deserts. So when Jones did not fall as pedicted and in fact gave Muhammad a good fight, people felt like as if Jones had won.

And 'groove', has anyone ever suggested that Doug Jones was a bad fighter when he fought Ali?
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:49 AM   #18
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Default Re: Cassius Clay vs. Doug Jones

Well the way Ali gets stick for this fight in other threads about his legacy i get the impression that he was fighting some useless bum.
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Old 11-05-2007, 11:39 AM   #19
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Default Re: Cassius Clay vs. Doug Jones

I think it tends to be exaggerated. It was a close fight, but not a controversial fight for me, ie. Ali clearly won but not by a significant margin. The main conclusion we can draw from it is that, while a 1960s Ali was certainly awesome, he had his limitations against certain styles and approaches. However, it wasn't the robbery it's made out by some to be.

^ That's by far the most positive post on Ali I've written in ages. My Revolveritis symptoms have apparently cleared up at last.
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Old 11-05-2007, 03:06 PM   #20
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Default Re: Cassius Clay vs. Doug Jones

Thank you 'groove'.

But Doug Jones was a pretty decent fighter, good enough to be ranked amongst the top ten contenders.
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:20 PM   #21
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Default Re: Cassius Clay vs. Doug Jones

Yes Doug seemed like he thought he was robbed but in honesty it wasn't that close a fight, it was clearly an Ali win , just that Jones had some good success in some of the middle rounds.. I thought the Jimmy Young fight was a night when Ali got out of Jail free. Jimmy slicked Ali with some very smooth skilled counter punching.. a la Chris Byrd..
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Old 11-05-2007, 10:03 PM   #22
Marciano Frazier
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Default Re: Cassius Clay vs. Doug Jones

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Originally Posted by groove
Well the way Ali gets stick for this fight in other threads about his legacy i get the impression that he was fighting some useless bum.
No, pretty much any all-time great will get "stick" for having a disputed decision or struggling against a non-great opponent. Just look at the way you talk about Marciano.
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Old 11-05-2007, 10:16 PM   #23
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Default Re: Cassius Clay vs. Doug Jones

By the way, to reiterate- to anyone who wants to argue Jones should've won, I request that you post your round-by-round scoring for this fight. Because, again, I think Ali clearly won the fight and don't really see how one could reasonably come up with a score in favor of Jones if he simply sat down and scored objectively round by round.

I scored it myself and thought 6-3-1, maybe 6-4 would be an accurate representation. If I gave Jones everything I could, I might be able to get 5-4-1 or 5-5.

Last edited by Thom; 09-01-2006 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:14 AM   #24
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Default Re: Cassius Clay vs. Doug Jones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longhhorn71
Hank my friend. You must have been living in or about NYC
during the time of some of the great fights as Madison Square Garden.

You might enlighten is all if you saw some of the Griffith-Benvenuiti fights, or the Fight of the Century and its sequel, or maybe a Duran fight (Buchanan or DeJesus?).

Thanks.
I saw most fights at Garden from 60's through 80's, One i mssed was Ali -Frazier one. Of all the ones to miss We had tickets, but too many people, I let my cousin go, he was geting married that month.

Most impressve guy I saw in person fighting was Monzon (against Licata) I wish Monzon had come to States more often.

Most underated is Vito Antuofermo. He had to wait 5 years for title shot. He was also one of my favorites to see in person, way he fought did not come through on telivison (same for Monzon---totally better watching him in person) Duran was oppisite--yeah, I know it's strange, but a few friends agree. Styles, I guess.

Most overated is Emile Griffith.


Duran in 1970's--best reflexes on a fighter I ever saw. I saw him several times--Buchanan and De Jesus fights. Also in other.

These are off top of my head, if I think of anything worthwhile I'll mention it.
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:35 AM   #25
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Default Re: Cassius Clay vs. Doug Jones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
I saw most fights at Garden from 60's through 80's, One i mssed was Ali -Frazier one. Of all the ones to miss We had tickets, but too many people, I let my cousin go, he was geting married that month.

Most impressve guy I saw in person fighting was Monzon (against Licata) I wish Monzon had come to States more often.

Most underated is Vito Antuofermo. He had to wait 5 years for title shot. He was also one of my favorites to see in person, way he fought did not come through on telivison (same for Monzon---totally better watching him in person) Duran was oppisite--yeah, I know it's strange, but a few friends agree. Styles, I guess.

Most overated is Emile Griffith.

Duran in 1970's--best reflexes on a fighter I ever saw. I saw him several times--Buchanan and De Jesus fights. Also in other.

These are off top of my head, if I think of anything worthwhile I'll mention it.
I marveled at your post, Hank. I was at the same fights in the Garden as you were, plus every Friday night at the old Garden on 52nd St. in the '40s and '50s.
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:44 AM   #26
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Default Re: Cassius Clay vs. Doug Jones

It really is great being able to discuss with people who were actually there when and where these historical fights took place. It adds a new sort of perspective to the conversation.
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Old 11-06-2007, 01:04 AM   #27
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Default Re: Cassius Clay vs. Doug Jones

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Originally Posted by I Am Legend
how on earth could you afford that? Were you in the nosebleeds or closer to the ring?
As a kid, I went with my dad and all my uncles, who were die-hard fight fans, and we sat ringside or low mezz. As I got older, and trained at Stillman's gym, the fighters and trainers smuggled me in and I sat with them, or grabbed an empty seat. The security guards were regulars and looked the other way.
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Old 11-06-2007, 06:44 AM   #28
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Default Re: Cassius Clay vs. Doug Jones

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Originally Posted by C. M. Clay II
I had it 7-2-1. Clay just threw too many punches for Jones to win. the rounds themselves were close, but Clay's fast flurries stole most of the rounds.


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Old 11-06-2007, 06:52 AM   #29
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Default Re: Cassius Clay vs. Doug Jones

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Originally Posted by Hank
Most impressve guy I saw in person fighting was Monzon (against Licata) I wish Monzon had come to States more often.
Hi Hank, this is fascinating stuff. Could you perhaps amplify what it is about Monzon that was so impressive in the flesh? I ask, because I sometimes feel like Monzon DOESN'T look that special on film (though I am a big, big fan and really rate him).



Quote:
Duran in 1970's--best reflexes on a fighter I ever saw. I saw him several times--Buchanan and De Jesus fights. Also in other.
I'm glad to hear this from someone who saw him live say so. I've often asserted that Duran was one of the most natural of fighters and people often just shrug, as if i've said something indefensable. Anything particular stick in your memory?
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:49 PM   #30
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Default Re: Cassius Clay vs. Doug Jones

Lucky guys Hank and john garfield.

All I can say is that I feel like I am in exalted company.
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