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View Poll Results: Dempsey vs Never boxed crack head
Dempsey shits his pants and falls down because the crack head is black 8 50.00%
dempsey runs foward with his hands down and gets smashed with a right hand, ko at 13 second mark. 7 43.75%
dempsey loads his gloves and manages to last into the second round...but modern fighter still wins. 1 6.25%
dempsey is not allowed to fight because he was really too small to fight a 120 pound crack head. 0 0%
Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-30-2010, 11:35 AM   #76
Jorodz
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
I don't even seen much difference in styles.

Every fighter has a unique style. Generally though there's the same variety of styles.

Dempsey is a bit like Nigel Benn or something.

And I don't even know what's with the "modern fighters have high guard" stuff anyway. Some do. Some don't. Some switch from high to low, as good pros are supposed to.
Vitali Klitschko probably has the lowest hands I've ever seen, even when his opponent has proven capable of landing on his head. David Haye has low left most of the time. James Toney and Floyd Mayweather are known to use the left shoulder as a guard, as many of the old-timers preffered.
Etc. etc.
again, agree for the most part but i think there were big differences in the styles of some fighters.

benny leonard, for all his brilliant footwork, fought (asthetically at least) quite differently from modern lightweights. not worse mind you, but combination punching was new, hands (as you noted) were not in the same position, and you could still see many similarities to the fencing that helped shaped boxing

hand position and shoulder rolling i totally agree with and is certainly nothing new. watching jersey joe walcott (decades later from dempsey as well) he utilized it quite a bit. every style is different but i think the 20s were an era of transition, with the introduction of combination punching and the complete elimination of bare knuckle fighting
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Old 10-30-2010, 11:42 AM   #77
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

Dempsey skills are so subtle no one can see them.
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Old 10-30-2010, 12:36 PM   #78
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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Originally Posted by Jorodz View Post
again, agree for the most part but i think there were big differences in the styles of some fighters.

benny leonard, for all his brilliant footwork, fought (asthetically at least) quite differently from modern lightweights. not worse mind you, but combination punching was new, hands (as you noted) were not in the same position, and you could still see many similarities to the fencing that helped shaped boxing

hand position and shoulder rolling i totally agree with and is certainly nothing new. watching jersey joe walcott (decades later from dempsey as well) he utilized it quite a bit. every style is different but i think the 20s were an era of transition, with the introduction of combination punching and the complete elimination of bare knuckle fighting
I don't believe combination punching was new in the 1920s. Reports from fights going way back to the 19th century describe effective and educated combinations.

Benny Leonard's style was his style, I can think of fighters from the 1980s whose styles were similar to principles of fencing.
I really don't see much difference, but of course the crackling old grainy film make movements look sometimes comical. Imagine Lennox Lewis or Wladimir Klitschko with their left hands extended and pawing away, pulling and wrestling their opponents, captured on flickery shadowy old film, some people here would deride them as primitive uncoordinated bums.

I actually think Dempsey used the shoulder guard technique more than Walcott did. Tunney himself said Dempsey expertly protected his chin that way.
Not that I'd declare it a "superior technique" to alternatives, I just know Dempsey used it.

Dempsey had a ton of skills, and actually wrote a book on the science of boxing and punching. I find it strange that so many people would even dispute his technical ability. He may not be the most skillful of the great heavyweights, but he appears to be far from the least skillful.
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Old 10-30-2010, 12:38 PM   #79
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
I don't believe combination punching was new in the 1920s. Reports from fights going way back to the 19th century describe effective and educated combinations.
I agree. Demspey certainly punched in combination. What footage would you point to, say, from 1905 or before, that contains out-fighting combination punching as we would understand it?
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Old 10-30-2010, 12:40 PM   #80
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

can i just say this has turned into a great and informative thread. despite it's origins and how the forum has been lately, this is something of a treat considering we're talking about BOXING here
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Old 10-30-2010, 12:41 PM   #81
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

Where does 'lubin even get these videos from?
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Old 10-30-2010, 12:45 PM   #82
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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Originally Posted by di tullio View Post
Dempsey skills are so subtle no one can see them.
Maybe not that subtle.



Anyone who knows a bit about boxing can see his masterful slips and parries, his maneuevering on the inside, his combined defense-offense moves, his lateral body positioning, and feinting.

Obviously all fighters do feints and little tricks that we never see, (unless you're in there fighting them) but we can't comment on that stuff.
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Old 10-30-2010, 01:30 PM   #83
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

Dempsey used slips and blocks in a very effective way, most of his fighting was designed to be on the inside which is why its more difficult to see, but looks at his hooks against Willard, tight and powerful as they should be, thats not bad technique, as for hand positioning, I always wondered by fighters kept their hands low in the past and didnt realize they did it to protect their bodies and used slipping to protect against their heads, useful information.

Dempsey's style was just a product of its own time, hed probably keep his hands high if he was fighting today, Look at Duran in the 3rd Dejesus fight, he held his hands high as you see most guys do in the gym, Duran was the mini Dempsey, both fought in the same way and Duran held his hands high because its like that today, hes a product of his own time. the fact that Jack wasnt getting hit with low hands is a testament to his skill, tunney also confirmed how hard it way to his Dempsey.

Since Tyson, its like thats how everyone fights, and if you keep your hands low, youre a wild slugger, anyone who knows boxing knows this isnt true.
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Old 10-30-2010, 04:04 PM   #84
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
I agree. Demspey certainly punched in combination. What footage would you point to, say, from 1905 or before, that contains out-fighting combination punching as we would understand it?

I'm not sure I can think of any footage from 1905 or before where I can see much of anything.
The footage that old is so obscured, so unclear, you cant really see if punches land, and often it's unclear whether a punch was even thrown, or whether the fighters are in a clinch or just out of one.
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Old 10-30-2010, 04:07 PM   #85
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
I'm not sure I can think of any footage from 1905 or before where I can see much of anything.
The footage that old is so obscured, so unclear, you cant really see if punches land, and often it's unclear whether a punch was even thrown, or whether the fighters are in a clinch or just out of one.

Nah, you seem to be seeing footage that is much worse than the footage I see. It's not impossible to see anything at all, i'm pretty clear about what i'm looking at most of the time. I had hoped that HD would make it easier again and although that doesn't seem to be the case, I can still pick out punches being thrown. I don't accept that the Corbett-Fitz film, for example, contains a double' jab right uppercut double left hook combo that i'm just not seeing because the film is old.

The film there is just doesn't show modern combination punching. Even someone like Johnson, who did double and triple up the jab doesn't generally hook off it, and he's a little later. I don't think you can seriously say that boxing wasn't pretty different in 1900 to what we see in 1990. It just looks different, and that's nothing to do with film quality.

I'm not saying it's bad, just different.
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Old 10-30-2010, 04:24 PM   #86
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

here is some of the oldest film that is decently clear

1907
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk2ozZ-x9Q8&feature=related[/ame]
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Old 10-30-2010, 05:10 PM   #87
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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Nah, you seem to be seeing footage that is much worse than the footage I see. It's not impossible to see anything at all, i'm pretty clear about what i'm looking at most of the time. I had hoped that HD would make it easier again and although that doesn't seem to be the case, I can still pick out punches being thrown. I don't accept that the Corbett-Fitz film, for example, contains a double' jab right uppercut double left hook combo that i'm just not seeing because the film is old.
Firstly, have you seen the full fight ?

Secondly, the film quality is awful. There are bits even in this clip where I can see that more than one punch is being thrown, maybe three, maybe four, possibly five in a row, but not sure if from the same fighter.
You simply cannot see what's going on.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOFdL5VkcQM&feature=related[/ame]

Thirdly, many great fights I see in any era dont contain a "double' jab right uppercut double left hook" combo .... that's a five-punch combo.
I watched the first two rounds of Holyfield-Bowe 1 and neither of them sustained more than a three-punch combo (thrown or landed), and Bowe didn't even managed that. Holyfield was a great combination puncher, but never managed or even attempted anything more than three punches in quick-fire combination in a lively 6 minutes.



Quote:
The film there is just doesn't show modern combination punching. Even someone like Johnson, who did double and triple up the jab doesn't generally hook off it, and he's a little later. I don't think you can seriously say that boxing wasn't pretty different in 1900 to what we see in 1990. It just looks different, and that's nothing to do with film quality.

I'm not saying it's bad, just different.
It was different. More wrestling and clinch-fighting in general.

Saying Johnson doubles and triples the jab but doesn't generally hook of it is more than you can say for several other great fighters of more modern eras.
To use Larry Holmes as an example, a great jabber, wasn't much of a rapid-fire combo jabber. Holyfield probably threw a better double and triple jab. Rather than 1-2-3 in rapid combination, Holmes often preferred 1----2-----3----4 etc.
And his combos too were rarely more than 3 punches, and rarely a hook off the jab. He did have a great way of throwing right uppercuts followed by overhand rights though, or visa versa. Let's not exaggerate what "modern" fighters do in relation to combination punching, or downplay what they do either.
Some of Holmes' best finishes consisted of holding the other guy in place with his left arm and shoulder and bludgeoning him with rights over and over to head and body. Not pretty combo-punching, just old school bludgeoning, picking the shots one at a time, accurate and sustained beating.
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Old 10-30-2010, 05:19 PM   #88
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

It's not that difficult to see what's going on in Corbett-Fitzsimmons:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU_sT_FvyWU[/ame]
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Old 10-30-2010, 05:24 PM   #89
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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It's not that difficult to see what's going on in Corbett-Fitzsimmons:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


Yes, I was just in the process of looking for your upload for a link. There are patches where it is difficult, but there are huge swathes where you can see exactly what is going on.
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Old 10-30-2010, 05:27 PM   #90
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Firstly, have you seen the full fight ?

Secondly, the film quality is awful. There are bits even in this clip where I can see that more than one punch is being thrown, maybe three, maybe four, possibly five in a row, but not sure if from the same fighter.
You simply cannot see what's going on.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
You can't on the version that you've linked, but why on earth would you chose to use that for an example with so much better footage available?! It's like you've literally put up the worst link you could.

Quote:
Thirdly, many great fights I see in any era dont contain a "double' jab right uppercut double left hook" combo .... that's a five-punch combo.
I watched the first two rounds of Holyfield-Bowe 1 and neither of them sustained more than a three-punch combo (thrown or landed), and Bowe didn't even managed that. Holyfield was a great combination puncher, but never managed or even attempted anything more than three punches in quick-fire combination in a lively 6 minutes.
Which is why i've asked you to provide any example of combination punching from this era. There are actually one or two okayish examples, but most occur in the second half of the decade.




Quote:
Saying Johnson doubles and triples the jab but doesn't generally hook of it is more than you can say for several other great fighters of more modern eras.
But what fighters, in footage, from this era, do? I don't understand why you're so keen to provide examples of modern fighters who don't do what i've said (when there are obviously fighters who do) as opposed to fighters from that era that do so?




Maybe we have different experiences of this film, and to be fair, I have seen some of this footage on a cinema sized screen (Though not the original film, DVD feed). Obviously it's tough on YouTube, but I say you can make a very good stab at decoding difficult film even on a laptop screen if you study.
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