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View Poll Results: Dempsey vs Never boxed crack head
Dempsey shits his pants and falls down because the crack head is black 8 50.00%
dempsey runs foward with his hands down and gets smashed with a right hand, ko at 13 second mark. 7 43.75%
dempsey loads his gloves and manages to last into the second round...but modern fighter still wins. 1 6.25%
dempsey is not allowed to fight because he was really too small to fight a 120 pound crack head. 0 0%
Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-30-2010, 05:30 PM   #91
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

Well, I cant say with any certainty from that film whether Corbett is definitely throwing combos or definitely not throwing combos.
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Old 10-30-2010, 05:35 PM   #92
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Well, I cant say with any certainty from that film whether Corbett is definitely throwing combos or definitely not throwing combos.


Well all I can advise is that you pursue the best footage available, because Corbett is so obviously throwing two and three punch combo's in this footage as to be blatant, even viewing it through a YouTube window.
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Old 10-30-2010, 06:09 PM   #93
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
You can't on the version that you've linked, but why on earth would you chose to use that for an example with so much better footage available?! It's like you've literally put up the worst link you could.
No, I just used the footage I found. I apologise if I found the wrong stuff.
I dont think GreatA's version is "so much better" anyway, it's all pretty bad if we're honest.



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Which is why i've asked you to provide any example of combination punching from this era. There are actually one or two okayish examples, but most occur in the second half of the decade.

But what fighters, in footage, from this era, do? I don't understand why you're so keen to provide examples of modern fighters who don't do what i've said (when there are obviously fighters who do) as opposed to fighters from that era that do so?
I've already said I dont rate the film. I said at the start that combinations are described in reports, and they also are described in textbooks or interviews with old-time fighters.
You seem to be into the old film more than I am.
I cannot give examples, I think the film is very very bad, and mostly irrelevant.

You seem partially defending blanket statement assessments regarding the technique of the era on what can or cannot be seen on the little footage available of that era, by stressing "the film doesn't show it".

Actually, Holyfield-Bowe 1 was the first footage I looked at to compare combination punching, because frankly I thought it would feature a decent amount. You may think I've been searching to find stuff lacking in combos, but not so.
As for Holmes, I thought your criticism of Johnson for only doubling and tripling the jab and not hooking off it was harsh. I've heard people criticize Holmes unfairly for not hooking enough off his jab too.

And besides, the point is, the samples of the early era are few and far between, we have what amounts to a few films (of relatively horrible film quality) in comparison to the tens of thousands of fights (in great quality) we have seen in the modern era in their entirety.

Of almost every great fighter post-1970 I've seen hours upon hours of high quality footage, and tend to remember the good stuff they do.
I'm sure if we randomly spliced out 10, 20, 40, even 50 minutes of their careers, and obscured the quality of the film, messed up the speed, we could easily be left with some shit than even under instense study wouldn't reveal all their skills, techniques and ability. Even with a dozen or so fighters we'd be lucky to be left with any of the real good stuff.
And that's why I've even brought up the issue of modern footage.


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Maybe we have different experiences of this film, and to be fair, I have seen some of this footage on a cinema sized screen (Though not the original film, DVD feed). Obviously it's tough on YouTube, but I say you can make a very good stab at decoding difficult film even on a laptop screen if you study.
Well, there's nothing wrong with that. But even if I had as much faith in the accuracy of the "decoding" process as you do, it still doesn't lead to much knowledge of the era as a whole. The filmed sample of the era is minimal, and quite random.
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Old 10-30-2010, 06:13 PM   #94
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

unfrgiven you are a known tinter. The film is not irrelevant, you can clearly see the style and the single punch clinch attacks. The leaning backwards whilst hopping forwards and the gaurd all over the place
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Old 10-30-2010, 06:13 PM   #95
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Well all I can advise is that you pursue the best footage available, because Corbett is so obviously throwing two and three punch combo's in this footage as to be blatant, even viewing it through a YouTube window.
If you say so.
I know Corbett throws combos anyway.
But you also stated "The film there is just doesn't show modern combination punching." ........ yet Corbett is (apparently) blatantly throwing two and three punch combos ?

What is "modern" combination punching ..... and how often do the moderns use it ?
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Old 10-30-2010, 06:20 PM   #96
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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unfrgiven you are a known tinter. The film is not irrelevant, you can clearly see the style and the single punch clinch attacks. The leaning backwards whilst hopping forwards and the gaurd all over the place

Well, McGrain says the film shows Corbett "so obviously throwing two and three punch combo's in this footage as to be blatant".

You say, "you can clearly see the single punch clinch attacks "

I say the film isn't clear enough to see much of anything.
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Old 10-30-2010, 06:21 PM   #97
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
I've already said I dont rate the film. I said at the start that combinations are described in reports, and they also are described in textbooks or interviews with old-time fighters.
You seem to be into the old film more than I am.
I cannot give examples, I think the film is very very bad, and mostly irrelevant.
I am very into all boxing film. Whether i'm into it more than you, I cannot say. I can say,based on what we do on the forum, and only that, that i'm more into old newspaper reports than you. I never, ever prioritise old newspaper over old film. A newspaper writer can't help us decide whether combination punching as we recognise today. He writes, naturally, using the confines and the lexicon of his own era. Only a little help there for direct comparison.

The difference seems to be you go to newspaper reports because you think the film unwatchable. Here, we differ, and I can't reconcile myself to your point of view, even just empathicly. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Quote:
You seem partially defending blanket statement assessments regarding the technique of the era on what can or cannot be seen on the little footage available of that era, by stressing "the film doesn't show it".
Right. The film we have is off the best fighters of the era. It is NOT random, as you insist below. It is of the best in the world, pretty consistently. If I see patterns in this limited footage, I think it's more than reasonable to draw a cautious conclusion.

Quote:
Actually, Holyfield-Bowe 1 was the first footage I looked at to compare combination punching, because frankly I thought it would feature a decent amount. You may think I've been searching to find stuff lacking in combos, but not so.
As for Holmes, I thought your criticism of Johnson for only doubling and tripling the jab and not hooking off it was harsh. I've heard people criticize Holmes unfairly for not hooking enough off his jab too.
No, I believe it was the first thing you looked at, I certainly don't conisder you a liar (maybe a little pig-headed, but it takes one to know one ). But do you really want to flip-reverse and have me dig out the type of combination punching I am looking for? You know, full well what I mean and what is out there. You could name the names of the fighters I might pick out to prove my point before I did it, I bet.

That's not the point. The point is, how far had technique advanced from the bare-knuckle era (Different sport, you were nothing if you didn't know the cross-buttock ) to what we see in, say 2002? I think there was some distance still to run, and I think the evidence is clearly available on film.

Quote:
And besides, the point is, the samples of the early era are few and far between, we have what amounts to a few films (of relatively horrible film quality) in comparison to the tens of thousands of fights (in great quality) we have seen in the modern era in their entirety.
And comparing a handful of great fighters from 2000's and a handful of great fighters from between 1895, or whatever it was, and 1908 or whatever, will yield some results, in general terms - certainly more so than comparing newspaper reports to films.

Quote:
Of almost every great fighter post-1970 I've seen hours upon hours of high quality footage, and tend to remember the good stuff they do.
I'm sure if we randomly spliced out 10, 20, 40, even 50 minutes of their careers, and obscured the quality of the film, messed up the speed, we could easily be left with some shit than even under instense study wouldn't reveal all their skills, techniques and ability. Even with a dozen or so fighters we'd be lucky to be left with any of the real good stuff.
And that's why I've even brought up the issue of modern footage.
You can't hide the era behind the quality of the footage. There are many people willing to study the footage however ill. I just did Bassey-Moreno, this very evening, wrong speed, black and white, dirty, you just have to take your time and do your best. Will all conclusions be perfect? No, not under any conditions? Does the film play a role? I would be a fool to say otherwise, but there are degrees.

What I am saying to you is that your position - it is impossible to draw conclusions from the film - is as extreme as the conclusion you outline above - no good, wrong speed, looks shit, fighters no good. Somewhere in the middle is what we aim for.



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The filmed sample of the era is minimal, and quite random.
Minimal, yes. Random, no. How many fights of journeyman versus journeyman do we have from this era? Round about none.
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Old 10-30-2010, 06:22 PM   #98
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
If you say so.
I know Corbett throws combos anyway.
But you also stated "The film there is just doesn't show modern combination punching." ........ yet Corbett is (apparently) blatantly throwing two and three punch combos ?

What is "modern" combination punching ..... and how often do the moderns use it ?
I'll be honest with you Unforgiven, I don't see any point in progressing down this line. My source for comparison's sake is something that you are basically denying exists.
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Old 10-30-2010, 06:26 PM   #99
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Well, McGrain says the film shows Corbett "so obviously throwing two and three punch combo's in this footage as to be blatant".

You say, "you can clearly see the single punch clinch attacks "

I say the film isn't clear enough to see much of anything.
Its like McGrains a Christian, i'm a Muslim, and you're a buddhist

good form, bra
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Old 10-30-2010, 06:28 PM   #100
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

pac KO mayweather
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Old 10-30-2010, 06:39 PM   #101
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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Its like McGrains a Christian, i'm a Muslim, and you're a buddhist

good form, bra

I want to be the Buddhist.
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Old 10-30-2010, 07:14 PM   #102
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
I am very into all boxing film. Whether i'm into it more than you, I cannot say. I can say,based on what we do on the forum, and only that, that i'm more into old newspaper reports than you. I never, ever prioritise old newspaper over old film. A newspaper writer can't help us decide whether combination punching as we recognise today. He writes, naturally, using the confines and the lexicon of his own era. Only a little help there for direct comparison.

The difference seems to be you go to newspaper reports because you think the film unwatchable. Here, we differ, and I can't reconcile myself to your point of view, even just empathicly. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
In the absence of footage we have to rely on reports. Yes, some of the footage is that bad, but I'm not talking about reports that contradict any specific footage, so there's no conflict.




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Right. The film we have is off the best fighters of the era. It is NOT random, as you insist below. It is of the best in the world, pretty consistently. If I see patterns in this limited footage, I think it's more than reasonable to draw a cautious conclusion.
The film is of the best in the world, sure, and I acknowledge that. But it's quite a random sample that has survived.


It's like, for an example, if 8 minutes of Lewis-Tucker, 4 minutes of Lewis-Bruno, 10 minutes of Lewis-Tua fight, and the entire Lewis-Golota fight were all that survived of Lewis ..... that would be random ..... and assessments of Lewis could differ drastically depending on exactly which minutes are left, not to mention if the samples was of different fights entirely. I mean, it could be better, or a hell of a lot worse.
We base our actual assessments of Lewis on a much wider and more uniformly presented sample.

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No, I believe it was the first thing you looked at, I certainly don't conisder you a liar (maybe a little pig-headed, but it takes one to know one ). But do you really want to flip-reverse and have me dig out the type of combination punching I am looking for? You know, full well what I mean and what is out there. You could name the names of the fighters I might pick out to prove my point before I did it, I bet.
Yes, and you might be surprised how rare it is. The point you are trying to prove is actually impossible to prove because we dont have equal samples from the early era. We dont have anything close to full career sets, or even full title fight footage. We have a few films.
I keep repeating this point because it's important.
It's bad method to compare your findings from a sample of 10,000 to the findings on a sample of 50.

Quote:
That's not the point. The point is, how far had technique advanced from the bare-knuckle era (Different sport, you were nothing if you didn't know the cross-buttock ) to what we see in, say 2002? I think there was some distance still to run, and I think the evidence is clearly available on film.
I think styles have changed generally. Due to different conditions. Glove size, the standards for stopping a fight, even the need to looks flashy on TV.
Old-timers would wrestle and clinch more, and fight rugged wars of attrition, pace themselves differently, if for example they are going 25 rounds in the midday sun in some desert town in the wild west.
I dont deny that conditions and styles have changed.

But the techniques of punching and avoiding being punched were developed way back.
I dont think it advanced. I mean, do fighters today do more than slip, block, parry, duck, weave, feint, jab, hook, cross, uppercut ?
etc. etc.
The same techniques that were in the boxing textbooks over 100 years ago.


Quote:
And comparing a handful of great fighters from 2000's and a handful of great fighters from between 1895, or whatever it was, and 1908 or whatever, will yield some results, in general terms - certainly more so than comparing newspaper reports to films.
The method is flawed. The samples are unequal. We have loads of minutes of footage of one group, impeccably arranged in order and full context. And a few minutes randomly selected (ie. happened to have been filmed and survived) of the other group.

Quote:
You can't hide the era behind the quality of the footage. There are many people willing to study the footage however ill. I just did Bassey-Moreno, this very evening, wrong speed, black and white, dirty, you just have to take your time and do your best. Will all conclusions be perfect? No, not under any conditions? Does the film play a role? I would be a fool to say otherwise, but there are degrees.

What I am saying to you is that your position - it is impossible to draw conclusions from the film - is as extreme as the conclusion you outline above - no good, wrong speed, looks shit, fighters no good. Somewhere in the middle is what we aim for.
Okay, I'm not arguing against that, I believe footage should be studied, and assessments are worthy, but even then you can only talk about the fight you saw, or the fragment of the fight you saw. And there's simply not enough footage of the era to make the broad assessments of the era, or even of most individual fighters.
The quality of the footage diminish that even further.
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Old 10-30-2010, 07:15 PM   #103
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

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I'll be honest with you Unforgiven, I don't see any point in progressing down this line. My source for comparison's sake is something that you are basically denying exists.

Good.
Just dont make me watch Corbett-Fitz again.
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Old 10-30-2010, 07:19 PM   #104
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Its like McGrains a Christian, i'm a Muslim, and you're a buddhist

good form, bra



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Old 10-30-2010, 07:37 PM   #105
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey Vs. A black 120 pound Crack head who never boxed

we do have reports from those who saw the fight that describe combos much like you would see elite level fighters throw today. Does that mean that those old times just made those up? and happneed to make up combos that would some day be possible to throw. Or does it make more sense that maybe they where really where throwning those punches.
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