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Old 10-29-2010, 10:03 AM   #16
Kalasinn
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Flynn

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Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
Either Dempsey got rushed and caught cold, which is very possible, or he took a dive. I don't think there is any significant proof of the fight being a dive, but I admit the circumstances make such suspicions acceptable, even if not much supports the claim.

Dempsey was usually tough, it's difficult to imagine him being flattened in a single round, and we know boxers taking dives isn't all too rare. On the other hand an older, more experienced Dempsey was down against Firpo only seconds into the bout, so it's possible that a young, inexperienced Dempsey could have gotten clocked similarly by the veteran battler Flynn, except he wasn't as prepared to take it then. Years earlier Dempsey had been floored 9 times in the first round by Johnny Sudenberg.
Good post.
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Old 10-29-2010, 10:17 AM   #17
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Flynn

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Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
Either Dempsey got rushed and caught cold, which is very possible, or he took a dive. I don't think there is any significant proof of the fight being a dive, but I admit the circumstances make such suspicions acceptable, even if not much supports the claim.

Dempsey was usually tough, it's difficult to imagine him being flattened in a single round, and we know boxers taking dives isn't all too rare. On the other hand an older, more experienced Dempsey was down against Firpo only seconds into the bout, so it's possible that a young, inexperienced Dempsey could have gotten clocked similarly by the veteran battler Flynn, except he wasn't as prepared to take it then. Years earlier Dempsey had been floored 9 times in the first round by Johnny Sudenberg.
Dempsey almost certainly sustained knockout losses earlier in his career. This one only really stands out becuause it took place when he was on the cusp of getting to the elite level.

With no film of the fight and everybody involved dead we will likley never know for sure what happened. It dosnt help that Dempsey himself gave conflicting acounts of the event.
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Old 10-29-2010, 01:56 PM   #18
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Flynn

I had xeroxes of the local newspaper coverage sent to me by the Salt Lake City Public Librrary, which have been posted in an earlier blog--my conclusions

1. Ringside reports strongly support Dempsey being ko'd

2. The fight drew a state record gate of $5000. Dempsey was a draw. It is really hard to credit that he was starving.

3. The fight was delayed about an hour. One of the reports mentions Dempsey shivering in the cold hall. My guess is he was not properly warmed up and was caught cold by the savvy Flynn.

4. Dempsey's wife is simply not a reliable source. She accused Dempsey of all sorts of things. In his autobiog, Dempsey defended her as being down and out and saying what the authorities wanted to hear in order to avoid jail.

5. The knockdowns by Sudenberg certainly gives credence that Dempsey might have been stopped by the larger, much better Flynn.

6. One has to be careful about retro arguments from how tough Dempsey was to ko at his peak. It is somewhat like arguing that because Larry Holmes survived Shavers and Cooney, he obviously couldn't have been ko'd twice by Nick Wells.

Last edited by OLD FOGEY; 10-29-2010 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 10-29-2010, 02:27 PM   #19
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Flynn

Another point, it has been reported by some that he was sucker punched during the hand shaking. I think even Dempsey said this. That is not supported by the newspaper accounts. In fact Dempsey had tried to refuse to shake hands when the bout opened dancing away and circling away from Flynn with Flynn insisting on shaking hands. This took about 5 to 10 seconds. They finally shook and once again Dempsey moved away before charging in with a high guard. The instant he gave an opening Flynn landed a punch that rocked Dempsey and seemed to take the aggressiveness out of him. Quickly Flynn pulled Dempsey's guard down with one hand and let loose a stick of dynamite with the other which dropped Dempsey for about 20 to 25 seconds at least. There was no stopping of the fight prematurely or a hit on the handshake. Dempsey simply knew it was not only his biggest fight to date but also against his most experienced opponent and as such was apprehensive and tight going in. He got caught and the rest is history. I dont buy what a bunch of reporters said years later when trying to sell a good story or what his ex wife said while she was in the process of trying to assassinate Dempsey's character. If you look at all of the stories Maxine Dempsey told of Jack youd come away with the impression that he was adolph hitler and the marquis de sade rolled into one.
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Old 10-29-2010, 02:32 PM   #20
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Flynn

It's difficult to believe that Michael Nunn could knock out Sumbu Kalambay, a usually durable fighter in around unless you saw it. Sometimes these things happen and a figther just gets caught cold, either way the loss does not affect Jacks legacy but I would lean on the side of it being genuine.
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Old 10-29-2010, 02:37 PM   #21
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Flynn

Where is the shame in a fighter losing by KO if he regroups by putting it behind him and genuinely climbing his way to the top and carving out an everlasting legacy?

Its not like it happened again or that flynn was a bum.
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Old 10-29-2010, 02:38 PM   #22
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Flynn

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Originally Posted by Johnstown View Post
It was either a dive because Dempsey really needed the money...or a legit knockout...but several reports say Dempsey literally had not eaten for days and was in a very weakened state....
Economics of the day forced fighters like Jack to take fights under nourished.
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Old 10-29-2010, 02:54 PM   #23
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Flynn

We dont know if it was a dive or not. Dempsey himself said it wasn't, but who knows.
The nature of fixed fights is that most of them probably go undiscovered or unproven. the point is not to get caught doing it. Perhaps the cloud of suspicion should hang over the bulk of pro fights to some degree.

I dont think it makes one iota of difference to his legacy whether it was a dive or not. Dempsey wasn't a particularly good fighter at that time, and didn't really become Dempsey until he hooked up with Kearns which came after his loss to Flynn.
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Old 08-04-2011, 02:21 PM   #24
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Flynn

The Dempsey knob slobbering on this forum has run its course several dozen times over.

No one in his team, no one in the town, none of his friends, no one gave this guy a bite to eat for days??

Think about it, seriously.
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:00 PM   #25
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Flynn

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Originally Posted by Russell View Post
The Dempsey knob slobbering on this forum has run its course several dozen times over.

No one in his team, no one in the town, none of his friends, no one gave this guy a bite to eat for days??

Think about it, seriously.
They were hard days then. Even today, a bum walked over to me saying,
" I havn't eaten all day ". I replied "force yourself "...
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:06 PM   #26
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Flynn

It's just as rational to assume Flynn took a dive in the rematch as it is to believe Dempsey did the first time around. After all, he had already knocked Jack out in one - how could Flynn possibly be KO'd so quickly by a guy he'd already dismissed so easily?

Perhaps Flynn hadn't eaten in a couple of weeks by the time of the return match.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:26 AM   #27
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Flynn

I tend to believe Dempsey ate every day as a grown man by this time.
Yeah, times were hard and you had to work hard for your meals, but that's exactly what he did.

Of course, it is possible for run 7 miles and train hard on no food for a day or two ... for a hardened and well-developed tough athlete, of course it is possible. There are men in this world who done a lot tougher than that.
But Dempsey was a guy with a work ethic and a hardened hustler. He would find a way to work for his meals, not go hungry.

As for it being a dive, who knows and who cares. The "proof" of it being a dive is pretty flimsy, as is just about every allegation of a fixed fight. Getting knocked out by Jim Flynn on his way up hardly cancels out all the victories he achieved after that anyway. Similar things happened to many great fighters.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:27 AM   #28
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Flynn

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Originally Posted by Saintpat View Post
It's just as rational to assume Flynn took a dive in the rematch as it is to believe Dempsey did the first time around. After all, he had already knocked Jack out in one - how could Flynn possibly be KO'd so quickly by a guy he'd already dismissed so easily?
I agree.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:47 AM   #29
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Flynn

This thread was a good read.

I'm more satisfied than ever it was a legitimate ko.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:48 AM   #30
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Flynn

I find it interesting that there are two lines of defense for Dempsey here

1--He was starving and hadn't eaten in days despite being a participant in a fight which drew a big gate.

2--He took a dive

Personally, I think the answer is that Flynn had cement in his gloves.

**Seriously, I think the evidence points to this being a legit knockout of a young fighter who would later become a great fighter.
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