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Old 11-11-2010, 10:31 PM   #16
monaroCountry
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Default Re: MonaroCountry's top 10 HW fighter

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Originally Posted by Rob_Floyd View Post
Well, he already beat Nog, and it is pretty much unarguable that Cain's level of competition has been higher than Guram. I can't even tell if you are serious right now.
I would argue that the prime Nog is not the same Zombie Nog that Cain fought. Also Cain might have a better resume but he has had less fights, less wins and hasnt shown a better ground game (although a better standup). Another thing that impressed me with Gugenishvili has been that he actively works for a submission and not just your normal GnP blanket wrestling, he also picks his shots better.
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Old 11-11-2010, 10:48 PM   #17
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Default Re: MonaroCountry's top 10 HW fighter

I know that Cain's competition thus far hasn't been incredibly impressive, but you have to admit that it is much better than Guram Gugenishvili's. Does the fact that he has only fought two people with winning records mean nothing to you?
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Old 11-12-2010, 12:17 AM   #18
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Default Re: MonaroCountry's top 10 HW fighter

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HW RANKING

-Reasoning behind this ranking - most previous ranking have been Zuffa biased. However we dont know how good those guys are when they are unable to compete against other fighters from other promotions.
-This ranking is not ideal. I wanted to make it a mathematical/formula based but im ovbiously not a rocket scientist. This ranking is therefor based more on a fighters record, his achievements as an MMA fighter, the skills he has shown (kickboxing, grappling etc), and his achievements outside of MMA (combat related).


1) Fedor Emelianenko - 32 -1 The most decorated, most experienced, and most proven HW fighter today with the most top 10 and top 5 wins. Fedor has won against the best from multiple promotions and has held his spot for close to ten years. Fedor is the complete fighter with elite level striking and elite level grappling. Probably as good as Overeem in kickboxing and second only to Werdum in grappling.

2) Alistair Overeem - 33-11 (9-1 since becoming a full time HW fighter). Proven fighter with world class grappling and kickboxing. Elite kickboxer with wins against one of the best MMA and kickboxer Igor Vovchanchyn, one of the best kickboxers Badr Hari and Peter Aerts.

*3) Josh Barnett - 26-5 Another proven fighter who has succeded in MMA and in grappling. Has won the UFC belt, Pancrase and runner up in Pride. Won against prime Nog, won against prime Randy, and won against Aleksander Emelianenko. Is as adept at grappling as he is with his standup.

4) Fabricio Werdum - 14-4 Proven fighter with wins against the Emelianenko brothers, Antonio Silva as well against Overeem who all lost through submission. Werdum is the best grappler in HW. He has a limited standup ability with JDS lucky enough to catch this ground fighter with a lucky uppercut, JDS would have been dominated if it went to ground.

5) Antonio Silva - 14-2 Another proven fighter who has competed against the best from different promotions, has championships in elite XC, Cage Rage, and Cage Warriors. Has a win against former UFC champion Andrie Arlowski. Good standup but average grappling.

6) Junior dos Santos - 12-1 A good puncher but nowhere the level of Overeem and Fedor. Only notable win is against Werdum through a lucky punch against a grappler. JDS has shown good standup but is still unproven on the ground, he has been submitted by Joaquim Ferreira.

7) Guram Gugenishvili - 10-0 Unproven fighter. Has won the M-1 Global HW title and a master on the ground but needs to showcase more of his standup game. Has won against the best in Europe and the best in America.

8 ) Shane del Rosario - 10-0 Unproven fighter with lots of potential. Undefeated with wins through submission and strikes, wins come predominantly by strikes. SDR is a top kickboxer and is the WBC Muay Thai Heavyweight Champion.

9) Cain Velasquez - 9-0 Unproven fighter but unbeaten. Cain hasnt fought a proper well rounded elite HW with Nog way past his prime while Brock has shown little in terms of skills. Cain has great standup and the second best if not the best standup within UFC's HW. In saying that Cain's standup is still below that of Fedor and especially Overeem. Cain is a low level wrestler having only competed at a college level which is clearly below that of Daniel Cormier.Cain hasnt show any submission wins and is unproven on the ground.

10) Daniel Cormier - 6-0 Unproven in MMA but has an unbeaten 6 fight winning streak. He has shown the ability to be a mixed martial arts fighter with wins through strikes and through submissions. Daniel possess possibly one of the more impressive wrestling background to date. He is far better and more accomplished in wrestling than Cain, Carwin and Lesnar who are just another college level wrestling athlete.

---------------------------------------------
Notables

11) Brett Rogers - 11-2 Has submission and standup wins, predominantly a standup fighter with a fierce KO percentage. A huge puncher. Rogers is still not very proven on the ground and as a fighter. He has won against a former UFC HW champion but has also lost twice to the two elite MMA fighters.

12) Cole Konrad - 7-0 Unproven but also unbeaten. A mid level wrestling background. Has shown a TKO and submission wins and is the current Bellator HW champion. I also have Cole higher than Carwin because of his ability to fight to the end.


* possible illegal substances issues.
BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAA!!!!!!

This ranking is a complete joke.

Let's see Fedor lost to Werdum who lost to Junior Dos Santos who is the current number one contender for the UFC title. Alistair OVereem hasn't actually beaten a top heavyweight other than Bret Rogers who was never ranked by anyone with any credibility and isn't even ranked by anyone now.
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Old 11-12-2010, 03:16 AM   #19
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Default Re: MonaroCountry's top 10 HW fighter

Guys like Del Rosiro and Guram who've yet to face quality competision in the top 10 let alone above Cain is just silly..

A more sensible list based on results would be something like this, guys close enough for opinion to be a factor I'v put side by side.

1-2 - Werdum and Cain
3-4 - Fedor and Lesnar
5 - JDS
6-7 - Carwin and Overeem
8 - Mir
9 - Nog
10 - Bigfoot
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Old 11-12-2010, 03:22 AM   #20
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Default Re: MonaroCountry's top 10 HW fighter

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Originally Posted by sugarngold View Post
BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAA!!!!!!

This ranking is a complete joke.

Let's see Fedor lost to Werdum who lost to Junior Dos Santos who is the current number one contender for the UFC title. Alistair OVereem hasn't actually beaten a top heavyweight other than Bret Rogers who was never ranked by anyone with any credibility and isn't even ranked by anyone now.

brett rogers was ranked in the top ten after he beat arlovski

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Old 11-12-2010, 03:24 AM   #21
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Default Re: MonaroCountry's top 10 HW fighter

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Originally Posted by moreorless View Post
Guys like Del Rosiro and Guram who've yet to face quality competision in the top 10 let alone above Cain is just silly..

A more sensible list based on results would be something like this, guys close enough for opinion to be a factor I'v put side by side.

1-2 - Werdum and Cain
3-4 - Fedor and Lesnar
5 - JDS
6-7 - Carwin and Overeem
8 - Mir
9 - Nog
10 - Bigfoot

you got lesnar too high dont you?

in the top 5 with fedor over jds and overeem is too high for me.
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Old 11-12-2010, 04:46 AM   #22
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Default Re: MonaroCountry's top 10 HW fighter

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you got lesnar too high dont you?

in the top 5 with fedor over jds and overeem is too high for me.
If we were talking opinions on ability then yes I'd have JDS and Overeem above Brock but based on results not at the moment. #4 is I'd say the correct position for Brock, it reflects his wins but also his lack of long term results.

Thats IMHO where alot of dishoniestly creeps into rankings, looking at how far fighters should drop with a loss. Sherdog loves to play the "he was #1 he can't drop that far" card when in suits them(i.e when a UFC fighter is involved) but the reality is that not all rankings are equal. Brock rose to the top of the HW division(and I do think he deserved at least the #2 spot post Carwin) based on a limated number of results due to its mixed up status and Fedor's loss, he should fall just as quickly when he stops winning.
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Old 11-12-2010, 04:53 AM   #23
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Default Re: MonaroCountry's top 10 HW fighter

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Originally Posted by moreorless View Post
If we were talking opinions on ability then yes I'd have JDS and Overeem above Brock but based on results not at the moment.

lesnar got stomped in his last fight, jds has been on a roll -not against the best comp but lesnar really hasnt fought the best either, and then with a devistating loss..... well I dont know, these rankings are kind of silly but for some reason I keep going back to them.

I really dont think lesnars wins are that good heath herring, couture, mir, and carwin not all that impressive, good wins for a fighter of his experience and abilities, but nothing to get wood over.

Last edited by yaca you; 11-12-2010 at 05:09 AM.
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Old 11-12-2010, 04:54 AM   #24
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Default Re: MonaroCountry's top 10 HW fighter

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Originally Posted by sugarngold View Post
BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAA!!!!!!

This ranking is a complete joke.

Let's see Fedor lost to Werdum who lost to Junior Dos Santos who is the current number one contender for the UFC title. Alistair OVereem hasn't actually beaten a top heavyweight other than Bret Rogers who was never ranked by anyone with any credibility and isn't even ranked by anyone now.

Just because fighter A looses to fighter B doesnt mean that fighter C (who lost to fighter A) would also loose to fighter B......get my drift? Werdum is a grappler who doesnt have the best standup in the first place and so got knocked out by a puncher. JDS would have a very hard time outpunching both Fedor and Overeem (who got out grapplped by Werdum).

Also, you argue that JDS should be higher just because he beat Werdum who in turn beat Fedor. If this was the case then should we put Joaquim Ferreira ahead of JDS?
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Old 11-12-2010, 04:59 AM   #25
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Default Re: MonaroCountry's top 10 HW fighter

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Originally Posted by moreorless View Post
Guys like Del Rosiro and Guram who've yet to face quality competision in the top 10 let alone above Cain is just silly..

A more sensible list based on results would be something like this, guys close enough for opinion to be a factor I'v put side by side.

1-2 - Werdum and Cain
3-4 - Fedor and Lesnar
5 - JDS
6-7 - Carwin and Overeem
8 - Mir
9 - Nog
10 - Bigfoot
Again how do we know that he hasnt fought skilled fighters when the current Sherdog etc top ten are clearly biased? A clear example is having an MMA fighter who doesnt know how to trade punches and doesnt know how to grapple in the top 5.

What makes Lesnar/Cain's skills and achievements higher than Fedor. Your list is more like a popularity contest, in which case the most well known and popular fighter gets promoted to the totem pole. Having Brock up there is a mockery, his display was clearly not that of a top 10 fighter.
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Old 11-12-2010, 05:01 AM   #26
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Default Re: MonaroCountry's top 10 HW fighter

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Originally Posted by moreorless View Post
If we were talking opinions on ability then yes I'd have JDS and Overeem above Brock but based on results not at the moment. #4 is I'd say the correct position for Brock, it reflects his wins but also his lack of long term results.

Thats IMHO where alot of dishoniestly creeps into rankings, looking at how far fighters should drop with a loss. Sherdog loves to play the "he was #1 he can't drop that far" card when in suits them(i.e when a UFC fighter is involved) but the reality is that not all rankings are equal. Brock rose to the top of the HW division(and I do think he deserved at least the #2 spot post Carwin) based on a limated number of results due to its mixed up status and Fedor's loss, he should fall just as quickly when he stops winning.
Exactly.

I never believed Brock to be in the top ten, we was basically fighting against semi retired fighters.
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Old 11-12-2010, 05:08 AM   #27
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Default Re: MonaroCountry's top 10 HW fighter

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Originally Posted by monaroCountry View Post
Exactly.

I never believed Brock to be in the top ten, we was basically fighting against semi retired fighters.
Mir is not that great but how the hell is he semi retired?
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Old 11-12-2010, 07:16 AM   #28
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Default Re: MonaroCountry's top 10 HW fighter

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Originally Posted by yaca you View Post
lesnar got stomped in his last fight, jds has been on a roll -not against the best comp but lesnar really hasnt fought the best either, and then with a devistating loss..... well I dont know, these rankings are kind of silly but for some reason I keep going back to them.

I really dont think lesnars wins are that good heath herring, couture, mir, and carwin not all that impressive, good wins for a fighter of his experience and abilities, but nothing to get wood over.
As I said in the other thread I think we need to admit that HW today is NOT in the same position it was 3-4 years ago.

That was a stable division in which the best fighters had fought consistantly for a number of years to establish certain names at the top. Todays HW division is much more like that 8-9 years ago with new faces appearing, old faces decling or becomign inactive and many big matches not having taken place.

A ranking position IS NOT a defintive ranking of quality, its merely an assesment of who ahs achieved more at that moment. Sometimes the guy ranked #1 or #2 has done a ton to establish himself in that position as was the case with Fedor and Nog, sometimes though he's merely the guy on the ebst short term run in a mixed up division as with Lesnar recenly or Soko a few years ago.

I don't think Randy, Mir or Carwin were really established as top 5 fighters when Brock beat them but they were decent wins that should see him stay relatively high in todays division even after a loss. If he were to lose again though I'd drop him along way, maybe out of the top 10 depending on how other results went.
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Old 11-12-2010, 08:20 AM   #29
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Default Re: MonaroCountry's top 10 HW fighter

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As I said in the other thread I think we need to admit that HW today is NOT in the same position it was 3-4 years ago.

That was a stable division in which the best fighters had fought consistantly for a number of years to establish certain names at the top. Todays HW division is much more like that 8-9 years ago with new faces appearing, old faces decling or becomign inactive and many big matches not having taken place.

A ranking position IS NOT a defintive ranking of quality, its merely an assesment of who ahs achieved more at that moment. Sometimes the guy ranked #1 or #2 has done a ton to establish himself in that position as was the case with Fedor and Nog, sometimes though he's merely the guy on the ebst short term run in a mixed up division as with Lesnar recenly or Soko a few years ago.

I don't think Randy, Mir or Carwin were really established as top 5 fighters when Brock beat them but they were decent wins that should see him stay relatively high in todays division even after a loss. If he were to lose again though I'd drop him along way, maybe out of the top 10 depending on how other results went.
I can see where your coming from, I would rank him a little lower is all. below werdum, fedor, cain, overeem, jds, and and maybe even behind barnett.

I dont think lesnar really ever proved his place at a #2 spot or #1 spot after his 4 fight winning streak. he obtained the ufc title without deserving it by beating a guy who never really was deserving of the title himself and then after that was coming off a more than a year layoff at the age of 45 years old!! brock lesnar was basically a paper champ who only after claiming the title had to prove his legitamacy. which he was on the way to do when cain velasquez smashed him. with only 7 fights in total 2 being losses he doesnt have much of a foothold in any position and can fall quite far down the rankings based on the accomplishments of others and bad performences as well as a loss moreso for one so devestatingly one sided.

Last edited by yaca you; 11-12-2010 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 11-12-2010, 08:40 AM   #30
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Default Re: MonaroCountry's top 10 HW fighter

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Exactly.

I never believed Brock to be in the top ten, we was basically fighting against semi retired fighters.
And Overeem was fighting....
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