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Old 11-08-2007, 07:33 AM   #31
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: As Marciano was never beaten, is it reasonable to pick a >200lb fighter over him?

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Originally Posted by Seamus
You've got to be shitting me.

I'm no great fan of Marciano as they come but in my 30 years of watching the sport, and 8 years of competing in it, I'd say he's as good a pick as there is in the sub-200 class, a definite lb for lb'er. There are so many things he does so well that the novice misses on film and even his competition missed until they got in the ring with him. Supremely under-rated defense, fantastic stamina and fitness, and he carried a bit of pop. Plus, that somewhat important thing called heart which he proved time and again. Short career in terms of his time at the top? Sure, but his style dictated that, as did Fraziers, Dempsey's and Tyson's.

I'm not going to rank him as unbeatable vs. top heavies of the last three decades, but for under 200 lbs., no doubt in my mind.
Great post.
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Old 11-08-2007, 07:55 AM   #32
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Default Re: As Marciano was never beaten, is it reasonable to pick a >200lb fighter over him?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Great post.
If I remember your rankings correctly you only have 200lb+ fighters over him (Louis borderline case but we call him 200).

If you had to handpick a fighter comfortably under 200 to beat the Rock then who do you want?
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Old 11-08-2007, 08:24 AM   #33
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Default Re: As Marciano was never beaten, is it reasonable to pick a >200lb fighter over him?

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Originally Posted by Amsterdam
Anthony Mundine is likely a good pick over Rocky also.
You should be banned for that! Damn, ESB is getting worse and worse...
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:02 AM   #34
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Default Re: As Marciano was never beaten, is it reasonable to pick a >200lb fighter over him?

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Originally Posted by janitor
If I remember your rankings correctly you only have 200lb+ fighters over him (Louis borderline case but we call him 200).

If you had to handpick a fighter comfortably under 200 to beat the Rock then who do you want?
I indeed excluded Louis as he grew over 200lbs when he got into his middle 20's.



Like i said before, i would not pick any fighter under 200lbs to beat Rocky, but if i had to pick one that i'd give the best odds, it would be Dempsey. If he goes for broke early, he has a chance to win by knockout.. although i don't find it likely. Walcott would've been my other pick, but then again, Rocky already beat him twice. But he gave a good account of himself the first time. We don't know for sure what happened in the rematch, perhaps Walcott had lost faith, Marciano had a reputation for breaking wills.

If there was watchable film on him, i may have given Langford decent odds. His record supports it. But i find it hard to judge without film.

My 4th "upset" pick is Ingo. His completely destroyed Machen who wasn't faced by Liston's power over 12 rounds. If (and that's a very big if) he lands that right hand right when Marciano is in the process of throwing a punch, maybe he can knock him out. However, due to Ingo's weak chin, Marciano's strong chin and much more dimensional-ness, i don't think he'd win more than 1 out of 10.

A guy like Schmeling, despite being a superior fighter compared to Johansson, i'd give even less chance. He won't have a chance to stop Marciano and he's unlikely to outbox for long enough either due to his lack of durability.
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:03 AM   #35
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Default Re: As Marciano was never beaten, is it reasonable to pick a >200lb fighter over him?

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Originally Posted by Luigi1985
You should be banned for that! Damn, ESB is getting worse and worse...
What if i said Damiani could beat Rocky if he doesn't get hit on the nose.. ?
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:07 AM   #36
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Default Re: As Marciano was never beaten, is it reasonable to pick a >200lb fighter over him?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
What if i said Damiani could beat Rocky if he doesn't get hit on the nose.. ?





Well, it would be way more logical. Damiani was a big fighter with good skills, good chin and good speed for a man of his size. He beat fighters at the amateurs like Stevenson, and at the proīs he beat also good fighters like DuPlooy, Biggs, etc., he could have outboxed a lot of better ranked fighters (history-wise) IMO, I accept normally almost every opinions, I want to hear other opinions, thatīs why I go in a forum, but to say a SMW like Mundine, who lost to fighters like Siaca (who was schooled by a 40 years old Branco) beats Marciano perhaps is really sick...
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:14 AM   #37
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Default Re: As Marciano was never beaten, is it reasonable to pick a >200lb fighter over him?

Btw, ChrisPontius, what do you think of Damiani?
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:20 AM   #38
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Default Re: As Marciano was never beaten, is it reasonable to pick a >200lb fighter over him?

I don't pretend to know what the ultimate outcome of a fight with Rocky Marciano and Jack Dempsey would be, but I think Jack knocks him down early.
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:24 AM   #39
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Default Re: As Marciano was never beaten, is it reasonable to pick a >200lb fighter over him?

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Originally Posted by Quick Cash
I don't pretend to know what the ultimate outcome of a fight with Rocky Marciano and Jack Dempsey would be, but I think Jack knocks him down early.

Yeah, Dempsey is for example a good pick. I would also expect him to be a hard fight for Marciano, here´s my list with fighters who I would give a chance against Rocky (under 200 lbs):


Jack Dempsey
James J. Corbett
Gene Tunney
Ezzard Charles
Evander Holyfield
Jimmy Bivins
Tommy Loughran
Billy Conn
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:54 AM   #40
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Default Re: As Marciano was never beaten, is it reasonable to pick a >200lb fighter over him?

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Originally Posted by Luigi1985
Btw, ChrisPontius, what do you think of Damiani?
I have to admit i have only seen his fight with Mercer. He impressed me very much during that fight: relatively fast hands and feet, good boxing skills, size and power. You could say that the shot on the nose was a bit of bad luck (it looked like grazing blow, which can be like a bareknuckle punch if it hits the tip of the nose). I don't think he lost more than a few rounds against Ray , but i don't know how he lost to McCall and why he retired.

Looks like one of those fighters who lacked something essentiel to really make it to the top, despite having "top" tools.
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Old 11-08-2007, 10:00 AM   #41
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Default Re: As Marciano was never beaten, is it reasonable to pick a >200lb fighter over him?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
I have to admit i have only seen his fight with Mercer. He impressed me very much during that fight: relatively fast hands and feet, good boxing skills, size and power. You could say that the shot on the nose was a bit of bad luck (it looked like grazing blow, which can be like a bareknuckle punch if it hits the tip of the nose). I don't think he lost more than a few rounds against Ray , but i don't know how he lost to McCall and why he retired.

Looks like one of those fighters who lacked something essentiel to really make it to the top, despite having "top" tools.

Agreed. After the unlucky Mercer-fight, he stopped training at the gym, thatīs why he lost to the one-dimensional McCall, against the shot Page he won although in awful shape, but against a young and motivated Oliver in top shape it wasnīt enough. Mercer won 1 or at the best 2 rounds against Damiani, the shot at the nose didnīt wobble him or so, but it was a serious injury where you canīt go on boxing. It was unlucky, I would have liked to see him against some other fighters (Morrison for example) which he would be able to beat IMO...
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Old 11-08-2007, 05:21 PM   #42
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Default Re: As Marciano was never beaten, is it reasonable to pick a >200lb fighter over him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
I indeed excluded Louis as he grew over 200lbs when he got into his middle 20's.



Like i said before, i would not pick any fighter under 200lbs to beat Rocky, but if i had to pick one that i'd give the best odds, it would be Dempsey. If he goes for broke early, he has a chance to win by knockout.. although i don't find it likely. Walcott would've been my other pick, but then again, Rocky already beat him twice. But he gave a good account of himself the first time. We don't know for sure what happened in the rematch, perhaps Walcott had lost faith, Marciano had a reputation for breaking wills.

If there was watchable film on him, i may have given Langford decent odds. His record supports it. But i find it hard to judge without film.

My 4th "upset" pick is Ingo. His completely destroyed Machen who wasn't faced by Liston's power over 12 rounds. If (and that's a very big if) he lands that right hand right when Marciano is in the process of throwing a punch, maybe he can knock him out. However, due to Ingo's weak chin, Marciano's strong chin and much more dimensional-ness, i don't think he'd win more than 1 out of 10.

A guy like Schmeling, despite being a superior fighter compared to Johansson, i'd give even less chance. He won't have a chance to stop Marciano and he's unlikely to outbox for long enough either due to his lack of durability.
Lovely post.
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Old 11-08-2007, 05:23 PM   #43
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Default Re: As Marciano was never beaten, is it reasonable to pick a >200lb fighter over him?

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Originally Posted by Luigi1985
Jack Dempsey
James J. Corbett
Gene Tunney
Ezzard Charles
Evander Holyfield
Jimmy Bivins
Tommy Loughran
Billy Conn
Luigi, great list. - I would remove Conn - Louis fought in a pretty small killing zone, Conn identified it and took beautiful advantage of it (though not in the second fight, not allowed to). I don't think he would be able to do this with Rocky who is prepared to take more chances with his punching. Rocky by KO, early.
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Old 11-09-2007, 08:09 AM   #44
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Default Re: As Marciano was never beaten, is it reasonable to pick a >200lb fighter over him?

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Originally Posted by McGrain
Luigi, great list. - I would remove Conn - Louis fought in a pretty small killing zone, Conn identified it and took beautiful advantage of it (though not in the second fight, not allowed to). I don't think he would be able to do this with Rocky who is prepared to take more chances with his punching. Rocky by KO, early.

Thanks. If Conn fights with a smart fight plan, I can see him outpointing Marciano, if Billyīs fighting character would allowed it, itīs surely another question...
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Old 11-09-2007, 11:21 AM   #45
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Default Re: As Marciano was never beaten, is it reasonable to pick a >200lb fighter over him?

I dont see Billy out pointed Marciano. Has a other guy said, Louis's style gave Conn room to box and out point Louis. Marciano would be chest to chest with Conn. I think Marciano would take Conn out in 7 rounds or less imo.
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