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Old 11-30-2010, 03:58 PM   #46
The Mongoose
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh View Post
Ha ha, I see you just edited your original post. Well done there.

Well shit head, you quoted what it originally said yourself:

"Cleveland Williams-He had not been shot yet, you twat. Do you know anything. This was his prime run."

How is this contradicted? Cleveland Williams was shot Nov. 1964, he was in his prime up until that point. Do you believe getting shot at the very end of the year, should knock him from the 1964 rankings I referenced?

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Old 11-30-2010, 04:00 PM   #47
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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The Ring is more reliable than your crappy memory. Though never recognized as the number one boxer in the world.
The NBA, you know an official SANCTIONING BODY, rated Cooper #1 briefly in the early 1960s.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:00 PM   #48
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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Originally Posted by young griffo View Post
People accused Patterson of ducking Machen when he was champ as well.

Funny to see what Patterson did to him when they actually fought though.

Machen simply wasn't that good and didn't deserve a shot as you said.

Ali would've trashed him as well but it's a moot point as it didn't and shouldn't have happened.
Circumstance sometimes makes fights - as it turned out Machen would've undoubtably given Ali a better fight than Patterson - and styles also make fights and I personally think Machen gives Ali an awkward time styles wise - moot point I know - Machen had a nervous breakdown at some point as well which no doubt threw a major spanner in the works aswell
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:01 PM   #49
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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Originally Posted by The Mongoose View Post
Well shit head, you quoted what it originally said yourself:

"Cleveland Williams-He had not been shot yet, you twat. Do you know anything. This was his prime run."

How is this contradicted? Cleveland Williams was shot Nov. 1964. How does this effecting his ranking that year when it was already over?

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His prime run? He lost to Terrell a few fights before, how was this his prime run? And why would you see fit to edit anyway?
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:06 PM   #50
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

Cassius Clay's management didn't want anything to do with Fast Eddie Machen in
1963.
It wasn't a good fight, and they didn't need it. Too risky.

As for Mr. Chuvalo. It looks like his impressive Wdec 10 win over
Mr. Joseph Bygraves (42-26-2) and subsequent Ldec 10 loss to Eduardo Corletti (11-2-5)
was good enough to get him as a replacement.

A shop-worn Eddie Machen would still give a January 1966 Ali a better fight.
Geez, when he was 34-years old he gave Jerry Quarry a boxing lesson.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:11 PM   #51
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose View Post
Anything can be painted anyway you like it in boxing I guess - the fact that Williams was highly rated going into the fight indicates the difference between spin and the reality - Cooper was british champ fair enough but on the world stage that means about as much (probably less) than your average inter-state title in america - fact is Cooper also lost (twice) to the world beating Joe Erskine as well as Joe Bygraves (may as well have been Max Bygraves), Ingemar Johansson, etc etc he was a fairly average European heavyweight with a major cuts problem - perfect for Ali really
Cooper also defeated Erskine three times, and it's not like Erskine was that bad. He scored a nice victory over Pastrano, which you also conveniently failed to mention and had that win over Chuvalo (albeit by DQ, which you failed to note as well).

The fact remains is that, for the most part, Ali fought and defeated the contenders that were available to him. You can spin it all you want, but he met and defeated quite a few legitimate Top 10 contenders in a very short period of time, and that's worthy of note, at the very least.

So he missed a couple (or didn't get the chance to fight the,)...That happens to everybody. Marciano didn't fight Valdes or Walls, or Henry or Satterfield. Guess that makes his reign pretty bogus, too, doesn't it?
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:12 PM   #52
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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Even Williams was highly rated going into the fight, based on the fact that he had only lost once in the previous six years.

The Williams title shot was arguably the biggest farce of all, no mean feat when someone like Brian London fights for the world crown. Big Cat's top 10 ranking was based purely on what he'd done before he was shot. He did nothing on his comeback to earn that kind of ranking. In fact, he didn't even deserve a top 30 ranking based on who he beat in 1966. It's nice that he was able to make some cash after what happened to him but if we're honest, he had no business fighting for the Big One. Even his hometown supporters booed his win over Sonny Moore a couple of fights before he took on Ali.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:13 PM   #53
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh View Post
The NBA, you know an official SANCTIONING BODY, rated Cooper #1 briefly in the early 1960s.

Not bloody likely. Patterson and Ingo spent 1960 jousting for the top spots. By 1961, Folley would have done took Cooper out and Liston would claim his long held number one contender status. Later pal.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:15 PM   #54
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

By the way, I have to add, being as active as Clay in those two years a fighter is bound to take on some (relative) no-hopers. Not entirely his fault, but if we're examing the quality of the opposition, then we have to be honest and say it isn't that good.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:15 PM   #55
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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If anything it was briefly after he defeated Folley in the 50s, but he declined the title shot immediately and Ingo started making waves.

Not bloody likely. Patterson and Ingo spent 1960 jousting for the top spots. By 1961, Folley would have done took Cooper out and Liston would claim his long held number one contender status. Later pal.

Only one of us is correct. Take a wild guess who.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:16 PM   #56
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh View Post
His prime run? He lost to Terrell a few fights before, how was this his prime run? And why would you see fit to edit anyway?
Terrell beat prime Cleveland Williams...ok, I guess Williams never had a prime.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:17 PM   #57
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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Originally Posted by young griffo View Post
And Don ****ell got a shot against your boy Rocky and he was a fatter,shitter fighter than Cooper.

And I wont even mention Dempsey's title opposition as people have dedicated entire threads about how weak it was.

Truth is if you look at any title reign with hindsight and a critical eye you can make it sound a lot worse than it was in reality,as you guys a doing with Ali just now.
hahaha ****ell - fair dues that was a shit defence for Rocky - but you are way off the mark - fatter than Cooper he may have been but shitter he most definately was NOT - ****ell had more talent than Cooper by a country mile - ****ell used Cooper as a sparring partner - that's about the strength of it - ****ell beat the likes of Lloyd Marshall twice, Freddie Beshore, Harry Kid Matthews twice, Roland LaStarza (if you can name me a more talented bunch of fighters that Henry Cooper beat I'd be interested to hear) - oh and Don was European & British Lightheavyweight champion aswell as British Heavyweight Champion just like Cooper - Cooper may have produced a careers best performance in besting Folley in 1958 but fact is Folley brought everyone back to reality in 1962 when he blasted Cooper out in 2 rounds
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:18 PM   #58
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh View Post
Only one of us is correct. Take a wild guess who.
I would say you...

1960 had Patterson and Ingo on top as they traded the title.
1961 had Liston and Foley..Liston held the spot for years.

Cooper was out of the top 5 Ring Rankings by 62. If he was regarded as the number one contender by any organization in this time I would certainly question its credibility, Liston was most certainly the top guy after KOing Folley.

Irrrelevant at any rate, if Cooper ever held a top spot by the NBA it was deservingly so after he upset Folley. It is no diservice to the era in that case, as Cooper earned it with one hell of a victory.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:20 PM   #59
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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Originally Posted by Il Duce View Post
Cassius Clay's management didn't want anything to do with Fast Eddie Machen in
1963.
It wasn't a good fight, and they didn't need it. Too risky.

As for Mr. Chuvalo. It looks like his impressive Wdec 10 win over
Mr. Joseph Bygraves (42-26-2) and subsequent Ldec 10 loss to Eduardo Corletti (11-2-5)
was good enough to get him as a replacement.

A shop-worn Eddie Machen would still give a January 1966 Ali a better fight.
Geez, when he was 34-years old he gave Jerry Quarry a boxing lesson.
.

But by the time Ali fought Chuvalo in March of 1966, Machen was considered to be on the downside of his career, with losses to Ramos (who Chuvalo defeated, btw), and Mildenberger. He'd already been eviscerated by Patterson, and it's likely that Ali would have done much the same thing.

Chuvalo fought up or down to the level of his opponents. He stepped up his game and gave Ali a pretty hard fight. Meanwhile, Machen more than likely going to be demolished because his punch resistance was going, and he didn't have anything to keep a younger, bigger, faster opponent at bay.

It wouldn't have been close, and it probably wouldn't have done Ali's legacy that much good.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:24 PM   #60
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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Originally Posted by The Mongoose View Post
I would say you....

You seem to be having doubts, i would too if I were you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mongoose View Post
I Cooper was out of the top 5 Ring Rankings by 62. If he was regarded as the number one contender by any organization in this time, I would certainly question its credibility.

Yeah, forget the NBA's credibility, talk about Ring's- handing a Top 6 rating to Williams for looking like a 5th rater and having his hometown boo the decision when he looked the loser with a fighter outside the top 30.
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