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Old 11-30-2010, 04:25 PM   #61
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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Originally Posted by Il Duce View Post
Cassius Clay's management didn't want anything to do with Fast Eddie Machen in
1963.
It wasn't a good fight, and they didn't need it. Too risky.



A shop-worn Eddie Machen would still give a January 1966 Ali a better fight.
Geez, when he was 34-years old he gave Jerry Quarry a boxing lesson.
Source?

The same Eddie who lost to Mildenberger?
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:35 PM   #62
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

Drew101,

Very good points, but I was trying to make a case for a shop-worn Eddie Machen
over an un-deserving George Chuvalo.

Following Machen's KO 1 over Duke Sabedong in February 1964.
He lost to (7/5/64),,, Ldec 12 Floyd Patterson
He lost to (3/5/65),,, Ldec 15 Ernie Terrell
A Draw to (8/10/65),, Draw 10 Elmer Rush
He lost to (2/3/66),,,,Ldec 10 Karl Mildenberger
He lost to (6/3/66),,,,Ldec 10 Manuel Ramos

Yes, 5-fights and an 0-4-1 record.
But each of those fighter he lost to got subsequent title fights.
And in the Rush, Mildenberger and Ramos fights, it was only a 1-point swing in each fight
that resulted in a win for the victor.

The Karl Mildenberger fight was an Eliminator, to fight Ali.

Machens breakdown was in 1962.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:37 PM   #63
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh View Post
You seem to be having doubts, i would too if I were you.


Yeah, forget the NBA's credibility, talk about Ring's- handing a Top 6 rating to Williams for looking like a 5th rater and having his hometown boo the decision when he looked the loser with a fighter outside the top 30.

No Williams jumped to #6 after stopping Terrell and drawing with than #2 Machen in 1962.

Interestingly, the NBA had Williams as #5 at this time.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:40 PM   #64
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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The Karl Mildenberger fight was an Eliminator, to fight Ali.
So why then did you call Ali's defenses weak and said he should have defended against Machen? He obviously would have if Machen had managed to beat Mildenberger.

Ali actually defended against four guys who had defeated Machen. But these contenders was "weak" and Machen didn't get his due title shot, you mean? I can't really follow the logic.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:42 PM   #65
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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No Williams jumped to #6 after stopping Terrell and drawing with than #2 Machen in 1962.

Interestingly, the NBA had Williams as #5 at this time.

Williams was back in the top 10 before the Ali fight, which stank. Maybe some of the NBA ratings stank too- they often do, whether sanctioning bodies or magazines- see Mike Colbert at #1. Still doesn't change the fact the Henry made it to the top slot for a month or two in the early 60s.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:43 PM   #66
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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Cooper also defeated Erskine three times, and it's not like Erskine was that bad. He scored a nice victory over Pastrano, which you also conveniently failed to mention and had that win over Chuvalo (albeit by DQ, which you failed to note as well).

The fact remains is that, for the most part, Ali fought and defeated the contenders that were available to him. You can spin it all you want, but he met and defeated quite a few legitimate Top 10 contenders in a very short period of time, and that's worthy of note, at the very least.

So he missed a couple (or didn't get the chance to fight the,)...That happens to everybody. Marciano didn't fight Valdes or Walls, or Henry or Satterfield. Guess that makes his reign pretty bogus, too, doesn't it?
How would think if Ali had defended the title against Joe Erskine?? Would you consider that would have been a bit of a joke?? Well Henry Cooper was no better no worse than the Erskine's and the London's of the world - maybe Joe Erskine should've been given a shot

PS Marciano (how did we get onto him all of a sudden?) - he didn't defend against Valdes because he really blew his chances by losing not once, not twice on the trot, not three times on the trot...but 4 times on the trot over 1952/1953 vs Light Heavy Harold Johnson, Archie Moore, Billy Gilliam (who may have had a better shout than Valdes) and Bob Baker (ditto) - that's 4 times on the trot he lost - he produced a remarkable win over Ezzard Charles but if you know anything about that fight you'll know that Ez said "he caught me on the worst night of my career" and Ez desperately wanted a return to even the score but Valdes' team shut the door on that - he did get a 2nd chance eliminator against Archie Moore again and again he fell at the last hurdle and then lost to Satterfield to boot (interestingly Valdes knocked out Joe Erskine in 1 round - which gives you an nidication of the level of him and Cooper)

Bob Satterfield had been bombed out by Rex Layne end of and then also Ez Charles - timing is everything

Henry had lost to both Harold Johnson and Archie Moore which nudged them ahead of him and then dropped off with decision losses to Jimmy Slade () and Tommy Jackson (!!) in '54.

Walls dropped a decision to a Tommy Harrison (a Marciano sparring partner) in '54
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:47 PM   #67
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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He got a title shot tho which is a bigger joke
You don't think Ali should have rematched the man who put him down and he had a Lennox-Vitali style win over?
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:47 PM   #68
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh View Post
Williams was back in the top 10 before the Ali fight, which stank. Maybe some of the NBA ratings stank too- they often do, whether sanctioning bodies or magazines- see Mike Colbert at #1. Still doesn't change the fact the Henry made it to the top slot for a month or two in the early 60s.
-Ring never reconginzed Williams as top 10 before the Ali fight. I might be mistaken but I don't believe the NBA even did...all interest I've read regarding the fight was about Williams' still apparent power being a potential threat to Ali. He was a busy name opponent for a busy Champion.

-I don't believe Henry did and you have yet to provide evidence to the contrary. I can't see him claiming a spot while Patterson and Ingo were clearly the top guys battling it out for the title. Nor does this in anyway shape or form discredit George Chuvalo's top 5 status going into the Ali fight or the era as a whole. The highest Cooper was ever regarded was after the Folley upset..and again, rightfully so. But it didn't last.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:50 PM   #69
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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-Ring never reconginzed Williams as top 10 before the Ali fight. I don't believe the NBA even did...all interest I've read regarding the fight was about Williams' still apparent power being a potential threat to Ali. He was a busy opponent for a busy Champion.

I seem to recall he was rated in the top 10 by The Ring, not 100% right now as I'm tired, but I think so. I hope your source isn't just 'end of year rankings' by the way. Very poor show if it is.


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I don't believe Henry did and you have yet to provide evidence to the contrary.
I like to toy with opponents for a while, like Ali vs Terrell.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:53 PM   #70
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

The Liston rematch was necessary, and there's nothing Ali could do about Liston giving up, he even urged him to get up and fight.

Patterson suffered a back injury during the bout, but Ali was shutting him out anyway.

Cleveland Williams was shot, but the bout was in demand after Williams's miraculous recovery and his boasts of being better than ever and that he was being ducked.

Cooper & London were part of his British/European tour, a Cooper rematch was in demand due to their first fight where Ali was dropped.

Chuvalo was a late replacement for Terrell, put up his best ever effort and went the distance in a surprisingly tough bout.

Terrell was rightfully the number 1 contender and was on a very good run.

Mildenberger was a good European heavy who beat some world class pros.

Folley was still a dangerman who no one wanted to fight.

Overall it was a solid reign, even if the era of 1965-1967 was a little lacking. It wasn't until after Ali was forced to give up his title that the contenders were truly able to make a name for themselves.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:56 PM   #71
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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The Liston rematch was necessary, and there's nothing Ali could do about Liston giving up, he even urged him to get up and fight.

Patterson suffered a back injury during the bout, but Ali was shutting him out anyway.

Cleveland Williams was shot, but the bout was in demand after Williams's miraculous recovery and his boasts of being better than ever and that he was being ducked.

Cooper & London were part of his British/European tour, a Cooper rematch was in demand due to their first fight where Ali was dropped.

Chuvalo was a late replacement for Terrell, put up his best ever effort and went the distance in a surprisingly tough bout.

Terrell was rightfully the number 1 contender and was on a great run.

Mildenberger was a good European heavy who beat some world class pros.

Folley was still a dangerman who no one wanted to fight.

Overall it was a solid reign, even if the era of 1965-1967 was a little lacking. It wasn't until after Ali was forced to give up his title that the contenders were truly able to make a name for themselves.
Solid post. It should really close the thread, but...
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:58 PM   #72
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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You don't think Ali should have rematched the man who put him down and he had a Lennox-Vitali style win over?
A Lennox-Vitali style win??? You couldn't get a more different win the young Clay was playing with Cooper slapping him around like he was nothing and gooning to the crowd continually and had already cut him extremely badly and was not far off stopping him with that bad a cut anyway - Cooper produced a momentous left hook from no-where at the end of the round when Clay had his eye off the ball showboating and messing - Clay gets up bell rings Clay recovers and comes out and rubs his glove in the cut and gives it a few slashes - blood goes everywhere (and I mean everywhere - the man was absolutely covered in blood - covered - the cut Cooper had was far worse the the cut Vit had and it was over the eye too) - but for the cut and the knockdown Clay really was playin with Cooper - totally different to the Lennox-Vit war - that was as life and death as it gets - and totally the other way round in that Vit probably bossed that fight all the way and Lennox maybe got out of jail when the ref pulled Vit out on the cut
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:59 PM   #73
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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How would think if Ali had defended the title against Joe Erskine?? Would you consider that would have been a bit of a joke?? Well Henry Cooper was no better no worse than the Erskine's and the London's of the world - maybe Joe Erskine should've been given a shot

PS Marciano (how did we get onto him all of a sudden?) - he didn't defend against Valdes because he really blew his chances by losing not once, not twice on the trot, not three times on the trot...but 4 times on the trot over 1952/1953 vs Light Heavy Harold Johnson, Archie Moore, Billy Gilliam (who may have had a better shout than Valdes) and Bob Baker (ditto) - that's 4 times on the trot he lost - he produced a remarkable win over Ezzard Charles but if you know anything about that fight you'll know that Ez said "he caught me on the worst night of my career" and Ez desperately wanted a return to even the score but Valdes' team shut the door on that - he did get a 2nd chance eliminator against Archie Moore again and again he fell at the last hurdle and then lost to Satterfield to boot (interestingly Valdes knocked out Joe Erskine in 1 round - which gives you an nidication of the level of him and Cooper)

Bob Satterfield had been bombed out by Rex Layne end of and then also Ez Charles - timing is everything

Henry had lost to both Harold Johnson and Archie Moore which nudged them ahead of him and then dropped off with decision losses to Jimmy Slade () and Tommy Jackson (!!) in '54.

Walls dropped a decision to a Tommy Harrison (a Marciano sparring partner) in '54
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Old 11-30-2010, 05:02 PM   #74
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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Solid post. It should really close the thread, but...

Well, if it looked better on paper it would, however, it looks pretty mediocre.
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Old 11-30-2010, 05:03 PM   #75
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Default Re: Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

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Eh?? or should I say A??
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