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Old 11-09-2007, 08:51 PM   #31
NickHudson
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

As usual, a very perceptive well-written post Duo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
A large part of Muhammad's mastery was in getting his opponents to exert themselves more than he did, both in training and competition.

The low guard was certainly an enticing lure to get his adversaries to expend their energy in trying to exploit this illusion of vulnerability. Ali rarely had to work harder than his foes, mentally as well as physically.

He psyched out some with head games (like Jerry Quarry). Others were intimidated into exhaustion by his speed or ability to take a punch.

He fooled Foreman, Shavers (and possibly Bob Foster) into thinking he wasn't stunned when he actually was. Cosell noted with 1:15 left to go in round eight that Muhammad had Lyle perspiring heavily when Ali himself wasn't, even though Ron hadn't been exerting himself particularly much through the first several rounds. Ali thusly displayed that he was literally a cool customer, as well as figuratively so.

Naturally, it's also extremely wearing to miss a target repeatedly, as it is to have one's hardest punch seemingly do no damage when it finally does land. Later, SRL would always keep himself in nothing less than top condition with just two miles of daily roadwork, while victims like Bruce Finch would be doing ten miles, to little avail once the bell rang, worn themselves down in training, rather than building themselves up.
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Old 11-09-2007, 08:57 PM   #32
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

I agree with every letter of this post abraq! If you want to find a vulnerability in Ali you have your best chance with a small, very quick and elusive fighter, who carries an exceptionally high punch output.

Lewis and Bowe would have a terrible time with 60s Ali.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abraq
One thing the big heavies of today are deficient in is speed compared to the heavies of the sixties, seventies and eighties. I think they have traded speed for extra strength and power by coming in at a much heavier bodyweight.

I recently watched the second Ali-Frazier fight after quite sometime and I was really struck by the speed and intensity at which they fought. Leave alone today's crop of staid champions, even Lewis, Holyfield and Bowe did not fight at that speed and intensity.

I think speed as a prime quality for a heavyweight ended around the Holmes' era. Of course, prime Tyson could explode with the sudden burst of speed and power and Buster Douglas mimicked a close enough version of Ali to put away Tyson.

So i believe that the lumbering heavies of the present and the recent past would have an even lesser chance of catching Ali at his best than his contemporaries.

Norton's example does not really apply here because he never fought the 60's Ali. A prepared and not yet shot Ali who boxed and moved blanked Norton for the first five rounds during their second fight. A peak, sixties Ali would have blanked Norton throughout the fight losing only those rounds when he decided to rest or gave away by clowning.

Also don't forget his footwork, terrific head and even body movements, his sense of timing and ability to make an over reaching opponent pay by his exceedingly quick and sharp counters. And finally, so what if an opponent occasionally managed to catch him with a punch. He had the best chin of all heavyweight champions.
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Old 11-09-2007, 08:59 PM   #33
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Luigi1985
The 60s- Ali could do everything, even flying or things like that, Marciano on the other side would lose so SMWīs like Calzaghe or Mundine, I know...
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Old 11-10-2007, 02:48 AM   #34
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
I watched some of Ali's early title defenses vs Patterson, Chavalo, Terell, and Cooper. While Ali had great feet and quick defensive reflexes, his guard was wide open.

In the 60's, Ali seemed to have a height, speed, and reach advantage over just about everyone he fought. Ali was hit cleanly at times, but seemed to be able to get away with fundamental defensive flaw because no opponent he faced could match him in speed, size or reach. Sometimes a fighter would be near even to Ai in one of the three mentioned attributes, but the other two were not close enough to even things out.

But what if Ali was fighting a skilled fighter in the 80's, 90's, or 00's. A man who could match or exceed Ali's height, reach, and is close to Aliís hand speed?

In this case, I think Ali would need to re-tool his defense style. Otherwise he's wide open to jabs, hook, and rightsÖand would find himself in a tough fight.
I cant see what difference the decade makes,and the majority of the big men around dont seem to have the skill of the older fighters to me,Ali got away with technical deficiences because he had a singular talent ,he had the legs to "float out of distance before he could be caught.Fast smaller heavies sometimes landed on him with a heavy shot ,but rarely two or more at a time,how often was he caught with a combo?.Ali did some things wrong ,according to the book ,he pulled back from punches,often in a straight line ,kept his hands low ,when he was younger he used to "salute "with his right when he got tagged with a left hook ,Ali is like RJJnr,his god given talent let him get away with text book flaws ,,fighters that have these gifts ,and rely on reflexes and speed ,are capable of making good fighters look ordinary ,so that their oppossition is often underated ,its only when age ,erodes their reflexes and speed that we see their faults ,and the ohles in their defence,and of course they start to get hit more,imo Ali would make the majority of fighters in any era look ploding,who today do you think exposes his weaknesses technically?
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Old 11-10-2007, 07:50 AM   #35
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am Legend
the 60's Ali has the textbook example of the style to not use against a peak mike tyson.
Tyson would struggle to catch him, quit mentally like he always does when things dont really go his way, and get stopped under a barrage of lightning quick jabs and straight rights that he just cant avoid, probably late in the fight.
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Old 11-10-2007, 09:31 AM   #36
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by garymcfall
Tyson would struggle to catch him, quit mentally like he always does when things dont really go his way, and get stopped under a barrage of lightning quick jabs and straight rights that he just cant avoid, probably late in the fight.


Cooper and Frazier can reach Ali but Tyson cant right.


80s Tyson would be a nightmare for Ali because Tyson is one of the few fighters that Ali cannot outspeed.

Tyson was specifically trained to hunt down guys who tried to dance away and beat him from a distance.

The 80s was filled with wannabe Alis.

And before someone mentions Douglas.

Douglas beat a Tyson not at his best with jabbing and then clinching to stiffle Tysons offence NOT with dancing and jabbing.

Ali low guard and moving straight back from a punch would play right into Tysons hands who had the speed and left hook to make Ali pay for that fundamental flaw.

I still pick Ali to win but it would be a very hard fight for him
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Old 11-10-2007, 09:51 AM   #37
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by godking


Cooper and Frazier can reach Ali but Tyson cant right.
Ali/Clay was 4 years from his peak (as close as he got due to the exile) vs Cooper and slightly past it, heavier, slower and far less mobile vs Frazier.

Douglas can comprehensively outbox Tyson yet Ali can't?

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[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?
Quote:
Originally Posted by garymcfall
Tyson would struggle to catch him, quit mentally like he always does when things dont really go his way, and get stopped under a barrage of lightning quick jabs and straight rights that he just cant avoid, probably late in the fight.



Cooper and Frazier can reach Ali but Tyson cant right.


80s Tyson would be a nightmare for Ali because Tyson is one of the few fighters that Ali cannot outspeed.
Ali would indeed outspeed him for significant periods.

Quote:
Tyson was specifically trained to hunt down guys who tried to dance away and beat him from a distance.
Yes, lets all compare Tubbs and Biggs with peak Ali.

Quote:
The 80s was filled with wannabe Alis.
Very true, "wannabe" being the VERY operative word.

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[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?
Quote:
Originally Posted by garymcfall
Tyson would struggle to catch him, quit mentally like he always does when things dont really go his way, and get stopped under a barrage of lightning quick jabs and straight rights that he just cant avoid, probably late in the fight.



Cooper and Frazier can reach Ali but Tyson cant right.


80s Tyson would be a nightmare for Ali because Tyson is one of the few fighters that Ali cannot outspeed.

Tyson was specifically trained to hunt down guys who tried to dance away and beat him from a distance.

The 80s was filled with wannabe Alis.

And before someone mentions Douglas.
Already have without first reading your post this far.

Quote:
Douglas beat a Tyson not at his best with jabbing and then clinching to stiffle Tysons offence NOT with dancing and jabbing.
And like Ali couldn't clinch. Yes early Ali didn't need nor do it much but don't think he can't have improvised IF needed.

Quote:
Ali low guard and moving straight back from a punch would play right into Tysons hands who had the speed and left hook to make Ali pay for that fundamental flaw.
He'd be an awesome opponent for sure, but of course the same implies in reverse. While Ali didn't face anyone with Tyson's exact intangibles Tyson sure never faced an Ali either.

Quote:
I still pick Ali to win but it would be a very hard fight for him
Totally agree on both counts. I made this reply as i read your post bit by bit without first having read the Larry Lot. As i went along i thought you were yet another Tyson hugger but now realise you are simply looking for Tyson to get his fair due, as i often do when i think he is hard done by. I will leave my post exactly as it stands for sheer real time impact but will give you kudo's for both your post and your stance. Excellent stuff mate.

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Old 11-10-2007, 11:31 AM   #38
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Ali/Clay was 4 years from his peak (as close as he got due to the exile) vs Cooper and slightly past it, heavier, slower and far less mobile vs Frazier.

Douglas can comprehensively outbox Tyson yet Ali can't?



Ali would indeed outspeed him for significant periods.



Yes, lets all compare Tubbs and Biggs with peak Ali.



Very true, "wannabe" being the VERY operative word.



Already have without first reading your post this far.



And like Ali couldn't clinch. Yes early Ali didn't need nor do it much but don't think he can't have improvised IF needed.



He'd be an awesome opponent for sure, but of course the same implies in reverse. While Ali didn't face anyone with Tyson's exact intangibles Tyson sure never faced an Ali either.



Totally agree on both counts. I made this reply as i read your post bit by bit without first having read the Larry Lot. As i went along i thought you were yet another Tyson hugger but now realise you are simply looking for Tyson to get his fair due, as i often do when i think he is hard done by. I will leave my post exactly as it stands for sheer real time impact but will give you kudo's for both your post and your stance. Excellent stuff mate.

tnx

It has always been my believe that dancing and jabbing was NOT the best tactic. to fight Tyson because

1 He expected it because everyone tried it

2 Tyson was trained by D'Amato specifically to beat Holmes and other fighters who tried to play the outside game.

3 Tyson footwork was to good and Tyson was to fast to elude him for long .


The best strategy against 80s Tyson was to fight then clinch to break up his rythm then figth again then clinch again.

Playing the outside game does'nt work against a guy with Tysons footwork and speed .

60 Ali vs 80s Tyson is a 60-40 fight in favor of Ali.

Tyson is one of the few hws who has the footwork and speed to match Ali.
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Old 11-10-2007, 11:38 AM   #39
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by godking
tnx

It has always been my believe that dancing and jabbing was NOT the best tactic. to fight Tyson because

1 He expected it because everyone tried it

2 Tyson was trained by D'Amato specifically to beat Holmes and other fighters who tried to play the outside game.

3 Tyson footwork was to good and Tyson was to fast to elude him for long .


The best strategy against 80s Tyson was to fight then clinch to break up his rythm then figth again then clinch again.

Playing the outside game does'nt work against a guy with Tysons footwork and speed .

60 Ali vs 80s Tyson is a 60-40 fight in favor of Ali.

Tyson is one of the few hws who has the footwork and speed to match Ali.
Fair enough bro, fair enough

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Old 11-10-2007, 01:35 PM   #40
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Quote:
mcvey" I cant see what difference the decade makes,and the majority of the big men around dont seem to have the skill of the older fighters to me
Really? I think Bowe, Lewis and Klitschko have more skills than most old timers.

Quote:
Ali got away with technical deficiences because he had a singular talent ,he had the legs to "float out of distance before he could be caught.
That is because Ali was fighting smaller / slower heavies. None of the above fighters I mentioned lacked range, hand speed or straight punching technique. This is the key.


Quote:
Fast smaller heavies sometimes landed on him with a heavy shot ,but rarely two or more at a time,how often was he caught with a combo?.
Actually the bigger fighters that Ali fought who had skills and speed like Norton, Young, Lyle and later on Holmes had little trouble landing on Ali. They took advantage of Aliís technical flaws on defense. While Ali was older for Holmes, he was in his prime for Norton, and only slightly past it for Lyle and Young.

Quote:
Ali did some things wrong ,according to the book ,he pulled back from punches,often in a straight line ,kept his hands low ,when he was younger he used to "salute "with his right when he got tagged with a left hook.
This is my point. In addition to being open to rights ( which did not land much on Ali in the 1960ís because Ali was fighting smaller / slower / less rangier fighters in general ) Ali got nailed by many left hooks.

Quote:
imo Ali would make the majority of fighters in any era look ploding,who today do you think exposes his weaknesses technically?
Any big fighter with good hand speed and good skills with a jab or right hand. Or, any Swarming mid sized heavy with a good hook and good body attack could exploit Aliís weakness on defense. Iím not saying Ali looses these fantasy matchups. I am saying his poor technique would cost him more than it did had he fought more fighters who fit the description that I mentioned.
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Old 11-10-2007, 02:13 PM   #41
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Really? I think Bowe, Lewis and Klitschko have more skills than most old timers.



That is because Ali was fighting smaller / slower heavies. None of the above fighters I mentioned lacked range, hand speed or straight punching technique. This is the key.




Actually the bigger fighters that Ali fought who had skills and speed like Norton, Young, Lyle and later on Holmes had little trouble landing on Ali. They took advantage of Aliís technical flaws on defense. While Ali was older for Holmes, he was in his prime for Norton, and only slightly past it for Lyle and Young.



This is my point. In addition to being open to rights ( which did not land much on Ali in the 1960ís because Ali was fighting smaller / slower / less rangier fighters in general ) Ali got nailed by many left hooks.



Any big fighter with good hand speed and good skills with a jab or right hand. Or, any Swarming mid sized heavy with a good hook and good body attack could exploit Aliís weakness on defense. Iím not saying Ali looses these fantasy matchups. I am saying his poor technique would cost him more than it did had he fought more fighters who fit the description that I mentioned.
Ali was 31 for the first Norton fight ,and weighed 221 he wasnt in his prime condition wise for this fight ,as he proved by scaling 212 for the rematch ,he took Norton ,who was rated 7th lightly and paid the price,6 months later he was 9 lbs lighter.Ali was 34 when he fought Lyle and with his style ,that depended so much on reflexes ,that was old.Ali was 35 for the Young fight and weighed 230 ,too heavy forhim. Against Holmes Ali had nothing,but I agree Holmes would give him trouble any time,but then who would have an easy time against a prime Holmes?
Bowe would be a difficult fight for anyone same as Holmes,Wlad ,I actually think is inferioir to his brother,though I am in the minority.Lewis the same as Holmes and Bowe a hard fight for anyone whatever their technical abilities,size doesnt get the job done if you havent the required mobility ,and I dont see any of these ,with the exception of Holmes ,having anywhere near parity with Ali for foot work.
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Old 11-10-2007, 02:40 PM   #42
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

A few years ago, it would have spelt trouble aginst guys like Tyson and Lewis, for sure. I'm positive the Ali nut-huggers won't agree with this, instead consigning Tyson and Lewis to the level of Williams and Mildenberger.
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Old 11-10-2007, 04:49 PM   #43
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

But remember Lewis, Holmes, Klitschko, and Bowe are all top-class fighters. They already proved their greatness. It is true that the division is currently experiencing a radical transformation in terms of overall size, but while the aforementioned persons' rankings are influenced by reach, height and weight, they're not dependent on it. They are skilled heavyweights any way you cut it.

The problem is you're pitting Ali against the very best of recent times, and rashly attributing the increased level of difficulty to the modern generation. These men were not a product of their era. They are stand-outs. Why not mention Nikolay Valuev? The fact that he is neither fast nor skilled, as I'm sure you'd agree, enough to trouble Ali should tell you that this period of boxing is not improving as drastically as you thought.

If you hadn't brought it up first, I could have conversely asked the people of this forum if Ali would be in deep waters against the more cagey fighters of decades past. With Frazier, I at least have point of reference.
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Old 11-10-2007, 05:59 PM   #44
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by red cobra
A few years ago, it would have spelt trouble aginst guys like Tyson and Lewis, for sure. I'm positive the Ali nut-huggers won't agree with this, instead consigning Tyson and Lewis to the level of Williams and Mildenberger.
Ali seems to be able to walk on water in the eyes of some. Mildenberger was a small heavyweight up against a prime Ali.


There is no doubt that Mildenberger's good showing annoyed Ali a bit,
and eventually Ali switched styles to slug with Mildenberger because at times Midenberger was having his share of moments when they two were boxing instead of slugging.


If Mildenberger could land his jab vs a prime's Ali's defense, than so could the heavies I mentioned. The difference is, I don't think Ali would welcome a slugging match with Bowe, Lewis, or Klitschko.
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Old 11-10-2007, 06:18 PM   #45
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Who are the supermen that would have taken advantage of Ali's low guard after 1980? Maybe Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Moorer, Lewis, either Klitschko? There is no-one else in the last 30 years that would have any chance. None of the above guys would start favourite against Ali.
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