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View Poll Results: where do you rank dempsey?
top 5 33 31.13%
top 10 39 36.79%
top 15 20 18.87%
top 20 5 4.72%
top 25 4 3.77%
not even in my top 100 5 4.72%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-18-2007, 08:13 AM   #16
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Lewis
4. Johnson
5. Holmes
6. Marciano
7. Dempsey
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:16 AM   #17
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattler
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Lewis
4. Johnson
5. Holmes
6. Marciano
7. Dempsey
You've accidentaly put Marciano at 6.
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:16 AM   #18
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
This winds me up too. Wasn't he the most inactive champ?

At least Willard assembled a mad travelling circus type affair. Dempsey just fannied about.
It wasn't uncommon for the HW champ in those days to sit on the title and lighten his fight schedule.

You gotta remember, the HW Champion in those days, was an incredibly prestigious accomplishment and you could make a lot of money doing Vaudeville, endorsements and fighting exhibitions. It was smarter financially, not to fight and risk losing the belt.

Lose the belt and you lose your money maker - at a time when, for a guy like Dempsey, there wasn't any other choice to make real money. What's he gonna do, go back to Colorado and smash rocks?
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:20 AM   #19
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattler
It wasn't uncommon for the HW champ in those days to sit on the title and lighten his fight schedule.

Of course - but was he the most inactive? I mean, was he the laziest champion even in relative terms.
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:25 AM   #20
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Of course - but was he the most inactive? I mean, was he the laziest champion even in relative terms.
Maybe, but he was easily the most popular HW champion of that time, too. Dempsey was like the Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan of his day - a flat out rock star before the phrase had been coined. He didn't just make a good payday from his HW reign, he became incredibly rich for the time.
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:29 AM   #21
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattler
Maybe, but he was easily the most popular HW champion of that time, too. Dempsey was like the Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan of his day - a flat out rock star before the phrase had been coined. He didn't just make a good payday from his HW reign, he became incredibly rich for the time.
Disgarding for just a second the relative merits and sacrifice required, Jordan and Woods have earned their millions and adoration in a way that Dempsey never did as champ. Those guys are/were always at it.

Of course, golf isn't a sport but you see what I mean?
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:29 AM   #22
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
At least Willard assembled a mad travelling circus type affair. Dempsey just fannied about.
He also made some of the worst films of all time.

This should count against his legacy.
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:30 AM   #23
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
At least Willard assembled a mad travelling circus type affair. Dempsey just fannied about.
He also made some of the worst films of all time.

This should count against his legacy.
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:37 AM   #24
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Disgarding for just a second the relative merits and sacrifice required, Jordan and Woods have earned their millions and adoration in a way that Dempsey never did as champ. Those guys are/were always at it.

Of course, golf isn't a sport but you see what I mean?
It's not the same, McGrain.

Woods and Jordan work within the framework of organized leagues. It's not like Woods can say, "Yeah, I'll play the Masters but let's move it to July.". If he's not there when they host it, then he ain't playing it. Same for Jordan. The games went on, whether he was there or not.

Boxing is boxing.

I'm not excusing Dempsey - but I am pointing out that relative to that time and era, where opportunity for boxers (who were crawling out the of the academic woodwork) was slim outside their sport (and even within their sport), Dempsey's inactivity is understandable. Jess Willard did pretty good for himself until Jack annihilated him. After that.... what? Look at Jack Johnson... Jeffries... outside of boxing as the champ or against the champ, their chance of making a good livelihood comparative to boxing success, was highly limited.

Dempsey (and fighters that followed him) paid attention to that.
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:43 AM   #25
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattler
It's not the same, McGrain.
Of course, you can apply relativism if you want, but is is the same. I wouldn't expect Dempsey to box every week. But I would expect him to box much more that he did.


Quote:
I'm not excusing Dempsey - but I am pointing out that relative to that time and era, where opportunity for boxers (who were crawling out the of the academic woodwork) was slim outside their sport (and even within their sport), Dempsey's inactivity is understandable.
In the sense that I understand it - but as you've said understanding doesn't equal excusing. Powerpuncher's post refered to the impact on Dempsey's legacy caused by his inactivity - I agree that there is one. I bet you do too.
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:08 AM   #26
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Of course, you can apply relativism if you want, but is is the same. I wouldn't expect Dempsey to box every week. But I would expect him to box much more that he did.
No, it's not. The truth is, Dempsey chose to fight infrequently - in part because of the financial opportunities that being the champ offered; in part because of the unwillingness to fight blacks.

Do you think Harry Greb would've fought as often, if he was making money per fight like Dempsey was? No, he wouldn't have - because he didn't NEED to. Dempsey didn't either. It was his choice, yes - but compared to EVERY other fighter at smaller weights or being a HW who wasn't the champion (and being the top contender isn't going to make you instantly rich), Dempsey didn't need to box. With one fight, he'd make as much in a year as 99.99% of all other fighters could make fighting 20 times in the same time period.

Quote:
In the sense that I understand it - but as you've said understanding doesn't equal excusing. Powerpuncher's post refered to the impact on Dempsey's legacy caused by his inactivity - I agree that there is one. I bet you do too.
There is an impact. It would be foolish not to take that into account - but if I'm only going to rank fighters by accomplishment, then why bother bringing the likes of Wills and Langford up? They didn't win the title. End of story. But it's not.... and I think Dempsey did enough prior to winning the title and after winning the title to be high up the rankings.

When personal evaluation of how I think Dempsey would do against his fellow rankees comes into play, he ends up 7th on my list.
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:20 AM   #27
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattler
No, it's not. The truth is, Dempsey chose to fight infrequently - in part because of the financial opportunities that being the champ offered; in part because of the unwillingness to fight blacks.
He could have fought white men of course. Greb would have been an interesting customer.

As for the other thing, all i'm really saying is that Dempsey's wealth and popularity came to him DESPITE of what he did as a boxing champion rather than BECAUSE of, in a way that is probably not possible for the other two sportsmen you mentioned.

Quote:
Do you think Harry Greb would've fought as often, if he was making money per fight like Dempsey was? No, he wouldn't have - because he didn't NEED to.
Then you must explain why De La Hoya, Bernard Hopkins, Max Schmeling, Jeffries and Willard made fights when rolling in clover. Though I agree that Greb's MAD schedule was financially motivated, there is clearly middle ground for rich fighters.


Quote:
It would be foolish not to take that into account - but if I'm only going to rank fighters by accomplishment, then why bother bringing the likes of Wills and Langford up? They didn't win the title. End of story.
It ain't the end of the story bro. There are other achievments besides winning the linear heavyweight title. Like winning the more closely contested frequently defended Coloured Heavyweight Title. Or taking out great and accomplished fighters.


Quote:
When personal evaluation of how I think Dempsey would do against his fellow rankees comes into play, he ends up 7th on my list.
Not unreasonable, but I don't have him that high.
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:24 AM   #28
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I am as big a suporter of Jack Johnson's resume as you will find on this site but I can asure you that he did not take a dive against Willard.

Don't doubt for a second that the knockout was legitimate.


ps - janitor you have to upload your avataar again. theirs a red x
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:37 AM   #29
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

He's in my top ten, I have no idea why anyone would says he's somewhere between 75-100, that is ludicrous

The man was a flame of pure fire who tore through the division like a whirlwind, destroyed the incumbant champ like no-one had done before or since, rose from the hobo camps to being one of the greatest HW champs of all time and the biggest draw in boxing history. 5 count 'em, 5 Million dollar gates!
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:38 AM   #30
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Default Re: Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Dempsey
He's in my top ten, I have no idea why anyone would says he's somewhere between 75-100, that is ludicrous!
It certainly is a freakish thing to do.
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